Stephen F. Knott: Demagoguery, Restraint, and the American Presidency Part 1 | BRI Scholar Talks

0:01 [Music] hi this is tony williams senior fellow at the bill of rights institute and we are pleased to bring you another scholar talk for this episode we are very honored to have distinguished historian steve knott who is going to discuss his important new book the lost soul of the american

0:21 presidency the decline into demagoguery and the prospects for renewal steve uh you’ve been on this show before so i want to say welcome back and thank you for joining us and i want to point out to everyone that this is a two-part series uh and that we’re going to be discussing your new book

0:41 because it is such an important book so uh thank you for joining us well thank you tony it’s a it’s a privilege to be here and it’s great to see an old friend like yourself so happy to be here great well i’ll introduce you now uh stephen f knott is a professor in the national security affairs department at the naval

1:01 war college he co-chaired the presidential oral history program at the miller center of public affairs at the university of virginia which has a very useful website on all the presidents which which i’ve used many times he has taught for teachers for many years for the graduate school program at the ashbrook center of ashland university and he’s written

1:23 numerous books and including one we actually worked on together uh washington and hamilton the alliance that forged america and also your alexander hamilton and the persistence of met he is currently at work on a history of the presidency of john f kennedy

1:44 and his website is uh stephen f not kn ott dot com steve are you ready i’m ready tony looking forward to it great well let’s jump right in in the lost soul of the american presidency you argue that washington hamilton

2:06 and the other founders created what you call a constitutional presidency it’s one of energy and dispatch and yet on the other hand restraint character and limits what are the attributes of the constitutional presidency so tony i see the constitutional

2:27 presidency of of washington hamilton and some of the other founders as a presidency of uh for lack of a better term sober expectations in other words these uh key founders believed in an energetic executive as as you mentioned

2:48 but within certain limits and and the limits or the sober soberness of the office i believe can be best described as um an opposition to any government that simply translates public wishes into law in other words it was the job of the

3:08 president and the job of legislators or representatives to enlarge public sentiments to refine those sentiments and both washington and hamilton especially i think believe that public sentiments can be particularly fickle and prone to to passions

3:31 prone to perhaps base emotions and that it was important to set up both a constitutional scheme and also an office of the presidency within that that would be able to resist public sentiment at times uh because the frame at least the framers that i’m discussing uh believe that demagogues were

3:54 throughout history a source of um of disruption and then sometimes even collapse for republics so it was important to structure a constitution and to structure the presidency within that constitutional system to be able to resist public sentiments at time

4:15 particularly when the public was being stirred up by by demagogues so hamilton for instance in the federalist papers uh specifically says that presidents and those who wish to be president should not employ quote the little arts of popularity

4:35 and quote uh and by this i think he was referring to pandering to the public the public responding to demagogues who would undermine both the dignity of the presidency and also ultimately under undermine the whole system of constitutional government so the president should serve

4:57 in the view of washington and hamilton as a check on public opinion and perhaps more important or just as importantly i should say the president should take care that the laws be faithfully executed that there might be times when presidents have to enforce the rule of law in defiance of popular sentiment

5:18 majority sentiment so that in a quick nutshell is i think the key uh premise of the washington and hamilton presidency of sober expectations right and and so those are the very important ideas uh in in formulating the presidency and and i’d like to maybe dig a little deeper on on how do washington and hamilton

5:40 especially collaborate in establishing the precedence for the dignified constitutional presidency that you’re describing during the washington administration well uh tony in my view there’s one key uh event that i think summarizes

6:02 washington and hamilton’s perspective on this concert the role of this constitutional presidency and i think sets him sets them apart from the thomas jefferson and some of jefferson’s followers and that is the the whiskey rebellion of 1793-94 washington and hamilton had tried for

6:24 about two or three years to work with members of the congressional delegations from those districts that were opposed to the whiskey excise tax they had actually made modifications to to that excise tax including i think um giving the united states army uh contracts for whiskey purchases

6:47 to these particular distillers who are being hit hard by the tax things of that sort but after a period of three or so years when there was repeated in some cases violent resistance to the rule of law both washington and hamilton came to the realization that the rule of law needed to be restored

7:08 and it was going to take a show of force to uh to do just that now on the other side from the jeffersonian perspective jefferson thought this whole thing was as he put it hamilton’s insurrection that it was really not that big of a deal and a lot of jefferson’s followers drew

7:30 parallels to the whiskey rebels resistance to an unpopular tax uh to the the resistance to various unpopular taxes in boston etc leading up to the american revolution itself so um from jefferson’s view uh in a sense the public

7:52 will should if not always prevail at least carry a considerable amount of weight from the perspective of hamilton and washington that’s that’s not a good way to run a constitutional scheme based on the rule of law the law sometimes will have to stand up to um

8:15 mob action to be blunt so you see i think just a real diverse world view about on the one side the importance of the rule of law and on the other side a deep appreciation for the sentiments of the common man but again in my from my perspective

8:36 i do think washington and hamilton laid down an important marker that the rule of law would prevail uh in the united states and i would argue that save the sort of constitutional regime that we have the privilege of living in today great and and speaking of of jefferson and

8:57 jeffersonian ideals uh in the book alternatively with the uh the constitutional presidency you really describe a quote-unquote populist presidency that that breaks with with the founders uh breaks with their idea of the founders presidency and and really in many ways

9:18 degrades the office and so we’ve talked about the constitutional presidency can you tell us a little bit about what you argue is the populist presidency sure yeah so jefferson comes in to office of course after the very close call with aaron burr uh becomes president in in march of 1801

9:42 and jefferson views his election of 1800 as the quote revolution of 1800. uh that he jefferson and his followers are going to restore the united states to um uh it’s it’s a true understanding of the spirit of 1776.

10:04 that somehow after 12 years of federalist rule the united states had lost its way and of course with the passage of things like the alien and sedition acts under president adams you know there was that was that was a powerful message and it certainly resonated with a large uh number of the uh with with many

10:25 americans um in terms of jefferson’s understanding of the presidency he again believes that it is the responsibility of elected officials to um in a sense abide by public opinion jefferson believes and

10:46 this is a direct quote public opinion is quote the best criterion of what is best end quote and uh jefferson sees public opinion as giving energy uh to the government uh hamilton had a perspective on energetic an energetic presidency

11:07 uh jefferson’s perspective is very different that energy comes from the people whereas i think hamilton views the energy in the presidency coming from the constitution itself so you’re going to enlist public opinion to give strength to the government but particularly to the office of the presidency

11:27 because the president in jefferson’s view is uniquely situated he is elected by the whole of the or the entirety of the nation um and he in a sense commands the high ground and i see a very short distance between jefferson’s

11:48 conception of the presidency and andrew jackson’s whom no we’ll get to in a few minutes here but this notion that the will of the majority should prevail as much as possible i think jefferson’s a little more cautious about that perhaps than jackson was but jefferson opens the door to a kind of majoritarian

12:10 presidency and andrew jackson just you know kicks the door wide open so to sum up jefferson sees public opinion as a positive force as something that can energize the presidency he turns hamilton and the federalist conception on its head because hamilton and many of

12:32 the federals would have say would have said there were times when the rule of law must prevail and that one must be very concerned about the potential for the tyranny of the majority and that that that is a concern i think that perhaps jefferson either downplayed or simply dismissed

12:54 with his unbridled faith in the wisdom of the majority the wisdom of the people right so so that’s what you’re arguing is the populist presidency then this idea that the president uh rather than sort of you know is is following public opinion and being guided by sort of the the whims and and swaying passions of the people and

13:16 and and i would think that the term you know demagogue can can come into play here uh it certainly can i’d be reluctant to apply it to jefferson but uh and i know you’re not saying that yeah uh and trust me you know i’m probably more capable of saying that than you um but i think jefferson’s look jeffers as much as i have some

13:40 quarrels or qualms about some of the things that jefferson stood for this is clearly an extremely intelligent man he’s he’s not andrew jackson he’s not some of the he’s not andrew johnson who will come 50 or 60 years down the road i would classify jackson and johnson as demagogues i’m reluctant to

14:01 put jefferson in that category because he is such a an impressive intellect a renaissance man etc etc and he is more restrained in terms of his public rhetoric which is actually fairly limited so um but i do think that jefferson does open

14:22 the door to presidential demagoguery and in that sense his revolution of 1800 was significant but in my view also somewhat dangerous okay great so so he helps to establish this populist presidency and you’ve mentioned andrew jackson a few times and as you as you write in in the lost soul

14:45 of the american presidency he really engineers a fundamental transformation of the american presidency uh so so how does jackson epitomize this populist presidency as you determine yeah so of course jackson loses or well he would say has the election of

15:06 1824 stolen from him through the corrupt bargain between john quincy adams and henry clay and i’m mentioning that only because it confirms or reaffirms for andrew jackson that the system as designed by the framers was somewhat stacked against

15:26 uh common men or at least somebody like himself who represents the common man uh that there is a kind of almost uh insider uh corruption that prevailed under the old system and that that edivis oedipus needs to be knocked down and so when he wins the presidency in 1828 and defeats john

15:49 quincy adams um that campaign of jackson’s of 1828 uh is one of if not the first sort of populist uh public rallies um it’s it’s it is a heavy emphasis on jackson’s personality i am reluctant

16:10 to use the term cult of personality but there i would say there are aspects of that in the 1828 race and so you’re seeing the selection of a president becoming uh highly popularized uh so rallies with lots of liquor and and uh tributes to the hero of the

16:31 battle of new orleans it’s a focus on jackson’s personality john quincy adams is no match for that he he’s a kind of a dour personality he’s not a war hero uh and jackson’s campaign of 1828 just runs circles around john quincy adams who to some extent i argue in the book is

16:53 i mean technically this isn’t correct but he’s sort of the last of the founders in a sense he’s much more restrained uh he has a conception of presidential power that emphasizes the president uh as a head of state his rhetoric is is moderated jackson’s is not jackson is none of those things and yet

17:14 uh jackson goes on to a fairly overwhelming victory and makes it clear when he becomes president as he puts it i believe in his first annual message to congress uh andrew jackson says the majority is to govern and that as few impediments as possible should exist to majority rule and for

17:37 instance jackson wants to see the electoral college of electoral college abolished um and so there’s just a a um to some extent a partial refutation of the founders presidency both in terms of the selection process and in terms of how one should

17:58 conduct oneself as president there’s a there’s a complete reputation of the founders presidency uh by andrew jackson right and uh you know i could think of you know several other examples you you talk about in the book uh feel free to elaborate but you know the bank war where he’s setting up the people versus the interests and sort of playing

18:19 you know on on their fears uh of a sort of conspiracy of the eastern interests um you know we can uh think of that the spoil system uh and and uh you know a number of other things where where he really is sort of playing the populist yeah yeah you mentioned conspiracies tony uh

18:41 jackson was a real devotee of conspiracy theories and came to believe that this sort of invisible east coast elite of which john quincy adams nicholas biddle of the bank of the united states and others were sort of members of this secretive cabal um and uh

19:02 you know in a sense jackson is on to something when it comes to the bank of the united states there certainly was corruption as there is in all human institutions but uh you know there was corruption nicholas biddle was hardly a lovable uh figure so he made for the perfect foil uh for jackson

19:23 but there is this kind of conspiratorial demagoguery um jackson refers to the bank of the united states as a monst monster as a multi-headed hydra uh it’s just in this sort of transforming it into this uh to this to this monster to this this beast uh and and and in other instances as

19:46 well you see jackson’s penchant for a conspiratorial demagoguery when he is the near victim of an assassination attempt in 1835 he actually blames a sitting united states senator from mississippi as being the ringleader of

20:06 the assassination attempt there’s there’s no evidence whatsoever to support that but that didn’t matter at other times the jacksonian press accused the former vice president john c calhoun of being behind the assassination attempt and then at the height of the bank struggle uh jackson is convinced that there’s an army

20:27 of 5 000 americans uh rendezvouing in baltimore who are about to march on the capitol for purposes of killing him i mean this stuff was just off the wall uh but he believed it and on occasion he and his jacksonian press circulated these bizarre rumors so the contrast between

20:49 the jacksonian presidency and the presidency of john quincy adams who i again i see as kind of a throwback to the founders is is quite startling right right yeah i i can see that and uh so moving a little forward in time uh to abraham lincoln’s presidency he certainly had his share of scholarly

21:11 critics some argue that he was a even a dictator uh others argue he was a progenitor of the progressive presidency of the 20th century and sort of this expansive uh government but you argue instead he really sought to preserve the constitutionalism uh the dignity uh the the magnanimity

21:34 of the founders presidency and so uh ironically uh i think uh compared to other scholars you argue that he was a constitutional president who really preserved washington and hamilton’s vision and and and maybe what makes him even greater is that he did so in the midst

21:55 of inarguably our our greatest crisis in in our country’s history yeah that’s absolutely right tony which it makes him such an admirable figure because i do see lincoln as a restrained sober uh chief executive who avoids demagoguery by the way

22:18 i mean if there was any president who might have had a right to go after you know people like jefferson davis on a personal level you know to accuse them of being traitors or whatever he doesn’t do that he does not engage in that kind of personal invective that became the hallmark of the

22:38 jacksonian presidency so in a sense everything about the lincoln presidency is a reputation of the jacksonian model and as you know tony and i’m sure most the folks watching here today know as well um you know lincoln sort of cuts his political teeth during the jackson

22:59 era and he’s uh disturbed by this conspiracy mongering of jackson he’s concerned by a kind of subtle endorsement of violence against abolitionists or perhaps you could even say against native americans

23:20 there’s just a violent in somewhat intolerant attitude that seems to be promoted by the jackson presidency and lincoln rejects all of that and again conducts himself i would say in a more dignified more founding constitutional style presidency

23:41 you know similar to to president washington whom of course lincoln greatly admired so um yes abraham lincoln was a uh energetic commander-in-chief to say the least yes he prosecutes the civil war with great uh great with a great amount of energy

24:02 uh but there’s also there’s a rhetorical restraint there’s an appeal to the better angels of our nature as lincoln might say uh there’s an appeal to his fellow countrymen in the south where he actually says he kind of understands their position and notes that both americans both north and south pray to the same bible

24:26 and pray to the same god so there’s just this remarkable statesmanlike conduct prudential conduct on lincoln’s part that sets him apart from andrew jackson and i think you know not that i need to make the case for abraham lincoln’s greatness uh that that is secure i think but it’s

24:48 it’s deserved it’s extremely well deserved right uh and his successor uh was really quite the opposite uh as you noted in the book and and briefly uh earlier can you just point out uh some of the ways that andrew johnson greatly diminishes the the dignity of the office and you know

25:09 alternative you know uh is very unjust uh and you know really has a sort of crass populist presidency yeah crass populist presidency is a great way to describe the johnson presidency tony um yeah it’s unfortunate i mean i’ve often thought the course of american history might have been quite different

25:31 had vice president hannibal hamlin not been removed from the republican ticket in 1864. hamlin of course being replaced by senator andrew johnson from tennessee uh johnson was just um to some extent you might be able to say it’s a bit of a tragic story

25:52 he he he never should have been president of the united states and obviously were not for john wilkes booth i don’t think he ever would have been president but uh once in office once after the death of president lincoln johnson lacks that kind of magnet uh

26:13 magnanimity uh that characterized abraham lincoln he lacks lincoln’s um ability to separate policy disputes from personal personalities so for johnson if you disagree with andrew johnson on a policy matter including reconstruction or whatever

26:33 he had a tendency to take it personally as did by the way his role model andrew jackson whom he greatly admired a fellow tennessean um lincoln never personalized policy disputes johnson did and um it leads him to some of the most over-the-top rhetoric uh

26:56 for instance in the midst of the impeachment efforts uh sorry i guess this would be prior to the impeachment uh johnson compares himself however to jesus christ on the cross that johnson’s radical radical republican reconstruction opponents are attempting to crucify him

27:16 and he actually talks about how the blood of of you know if they succeed in crucifying him you know the blood of his his church will continue to live on or some i mean it’s incredible stuff and it’s way over the top it’s divisive he accuses some of these radical republicans of being traitors

27:36 on par with the worst confederate traitors of the civil war that type of language just remarkably divisive and you know to be perfectly honest i don’t know if i can’t recall if i say this in the book or not i’m not sure we would have been um well i i i often wonder if andrew

27:58 johnson should have been impeached that perhaps it would have been a marker that that kind of conduct that kind of behavior would not be tolerated and by the way one of the articles of impeachment was directed at that sort of partisan divisive personal demagoguery of johnson’s right and you know i i read some some new quotes

28:21 that i had never seen before uh by johnson and and i agree that the language uh was filled with with just horrifying white supremacy and injustice and i i mean i was i was shocked i mean i read the stuff all the time and i just shocked to read it but i really appreciated um seeing

28:41 some some evidence and some quotes there that i hadn’t seen before yeah there’s trouble it is troubling it was a mess one of his i believe annual messages to congress is i think i say in the book one of the most blatantly racist documents ever issued by any american president yeah it was truly shocking yeah well

29:05 so we’ve looked over in the first part of our discussion we’ve looked over about a century uh you know the first half or so of the american republic and and can you maybe summarize like where are we by the time of the civil unreconstruction uh in terms of the founders presidency versus the populist presidency is

29:26 the is the soul of the american presidency intact and healthy by that point i would say tony it’s it’s in the soul of the american presidency is intact but not damaged um the model set by uh jefferson to an extent jackson to an even greater extent and

29:46 then followed by andrew johnson is still the exception of the washington hamilton sober restrained statesmanlike presidency for the most part though remains intact with those glaring exceptions um and so as we as we approach the 20th

30:07 century a lot of the so-called gilded age presidents do act in a fairly restrained manner they don’t see themselves as well they certainly don’t want to stir the pot they certainly don’t seek to exploit divisions they certainly don’t try to

30:29 fire up the base so to speak so in that sense the washington model holds but that will change with the coming of the progressives and the rise of a more activist presidency in the 20th century right uh and we’ll have to save that for part two steve knott uh thank you for joining us

30:51 uh we’re gonna be uh joining you again for part two of this discussion on your uh latest book the lost soul of the american presidency and to our audience if you like this video please be sure to subscribe to our channel and comment your thoughts below we put out new videos every tuesday and thursday exploring u.s history and civics

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31:33 and ways that you can get involved with bri steve again thank you thank you tony it’s been terrific you