Martin Luther King Jr.’s Dedication to Equality and Justice with Jonathan Eig | BRI Scholar Talks

0:01 [Music] foreign [Music] scholar talks The Guiding question is how did Martin Luther King Jr dedicate his life to Justice and equality for all Jonathan I Our Guest is a journalist in the prize-winning author of six books

0:21 including Muhammad Ali and Lou Gehrig his most recent book King a life is a New York Times bestseller and the topic of today’s discussion I am Tony Williams Senior fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute and I’d like to welcome you to another episode of scholar talks in our series topics in American history

0:41 Jonathan I want to thank you very much for joining us my pleasure Tony you know congratulations on the success of the book I I love I loved King a life it’s a remarkable achievement if if I can uh you know just the way it feels very magisterial and scope uh so smoothly written just a great read and the way

1:03 you weave in the historical narrative with the biography of of King’s life it was really masterful and I don’t know I’m embarrassing you but but it was really a great book I appreciate you using the word magisterial but I was also really hoping to write an intimate book I wanted to write a book that made you feel like you got to know this Ben and that we took him off the The Mountaintop a little bit and you know

1:24 tried to make make you forget that there’s a monument and remember the man that was one of my main goals here yeah well you certainly achieved that too thanks you know one of the things I really like that you take seriously in this book is looking at King’s religious background the milieu of his family his ministry you know his

1:46 his profound study uh in in theology uh and so you know how do you think that that prepared him for his public life in the Civil Rights Movement I think that background is essential to understanding King I think everything he does is rooted in the Bible and his family is so deeply rooted in the Bible you know he comes from a family his father is a

2:06 preacher his father-in-law um his grandfather all preachers and it’s a huge factor in his growing up that he has some Shelter From The Southern racism that that you know affects so many others he’s not immune to it certainly but he’s got a little bit of a buffer because he comes from

2:26 this church family because he lives in this neighborhood that’s surrounded by relative um success economically and and culturally there’s there’s just a lot going on in his neighborhood that gives him a sense of of that he could be special and and then of course you know the Bible and the black Social Gospel in particular teaches that we are not just out to

2:47 improve our own lives we’re out to improve the world and to improve our communities and that he takes that very seriously from a very young age right and and I think as you point out that really shapes the emergence of King’s leadership during the Montgomery Bus boycotts and and it seems to me that that the portraiture you paint is is one that

3:09 that sort of sets King on his path for for his you know civil rights work that you know he makes a claim on these American ideals uh and yet he wants to do so through peaceful non-violent protests right part of King’s genius is that he combines these things that are very hard to argue with the Bible and the

3:31 Constitution and he says that we the black people of America can actually be the ones who fulfill democracy the promise of American democracy we can help make this nation complete so what he’s saying and it’s so appealing especially to listeners in the north is that we’re not trying to tear down this this system that has treated us so badly we

3:51 are not trying to overthrow this government that has abused us we are trying to join it and make it better and it’s very hard to argue with that kind of it gives you the moral upper hand right off the bat and the White media in particular in the north just loves that and that’s why I think King emerges as this National figure so quickly when he’s only you know 26 years old

4:12 um he’s he’s seen as the person who might have found a path forward for us right and and I hate to skip ahead a few years because there’s so much interesting material in there but but let’s Jump Ahead to Birmingham right um you know King and his fellow demonstrators how do they show such remarkable courage in taking on you know

4:34 this highly segregated uh order uh in the city under Bull Connor well at one level their courage comes from their belief in God that they um are doing the right thing morally spiritually that they are on the right side of this issue and that they need to show the world that there’s this Injustice going on so

4:55 that’s really the other piece of it is that King has learned that um he needs to create a spectacle he needs to create a drama that will capture the attention of the nation because he’s trying to show white Americans what it’s like to be black in the South especially you know he’s trying to show white Northerners um and he’s trying to show people who have successfully ignored this problem for a

5:16 long time including the president of the United States what’s going on what how much hatred there really is and and how much black people in America are willing to risk the sacrifice to try to fight for equality yeah great points um and you know as a follow-up question um you know the letter from Birmingham Jail is is really a remarkable statement

5:39 and and I think as you point out it really seeks to harmonize man-made laws with with that higher moral law with with the natural law so these are pretty profound uh arguments to make in this public letter it is extraordinary that such a philosophical and intellectual argument could capture so much of the

6:00 nation’s attention but again this goes back to King’s Genius of his ability to reach the masses and to do it at this higher level and to invoke the Bible to invoke philosophers um but to do it in a way that has has this Mass Appeal you know he’s brilliant on the on the pulpit he can make um the most ordinary folks you know

6:21 stand up and and cheer and want to March along with him but he can also force people to really rethink their their fundamental beliefs and the letter from Birmingham Jail is so powerful in part because he’s he’s taking on other religious leaders you know the letter is an attack on these religious leaders who are saying we support you but be patient and he’s asking them to reconsider what that means what does it mean to be

6:42 patient when we’ve been enslaved for centuries what does it mean to be patient when every time we’ve made progress we’ve been pushed back how patient do you want us to be for how long and you know there’s a kind of you know just fundamental logic there that that he makes it very hard to to argue with and so he you know he follows that up with the I Have a Dream speech

7:02 um you know and King again calls on America to live up to I think what you call in the book it’s foundational promises in the Declaration of Independence and you know I know one hand he points out the injustices of America under segregation and yet as you point out Paradox paradoxically he

7:24 doesn’t give up on the American dream he doesn’t give on up on those American ideals so you know how do you explain that um it’s hard because he has so much reason to give up right he gives that incredible speech at the at the mall in Washington on August 28 1963 and really seems to be um getting us closer than we’ve ever

7:45 been to putting some of this behind us putting some of the racism behind us you know America seems poised to turn the corner and then what happens you know right afterwards uh the 16th Street Church in Birmingham is bombed the FBI writes a memo saying king is too dangerous um his he seems to be uniting people and that poses a threat to the white power

8:06 structure so we must consider him an enemy so how does King maintain that sense of hope how does he maintain that dream when there’s so much backlash to everything he does and um again some of it goes back to his belief in the Bible but a lot of it also just goes back to his belief in American democracy that it can work and and he keeps telling us you know we must remain awake through all

8:28 these changes through all these struggles uh we can’t give up right that’s and a good message right yeah yeah so um King seemed to have a very complex relationship with what was emerging uh at this time in the Black Power movement uh and so what was the

8:49 nature of that relationship with the young activists and Snick or the student non-violent non-violent Coordinating Committee uh and and the black power movement in general it’s kind of some some interesting questions about means and ends perhaps King is always in a tough spot you know as soon as he becomes seen as the as the

9:09 leading uh spokesman for the black community in America that puts him in a spot where he’s subject to criticism from all sides not just from White critics not just from segregationists but from younger more radical black activists as well and he’s balancing that from a very early point in his career even while he’s still in his 20s you know he’s he’s considered the the old man of the movement and uh you know

9:30 that he’s too conservative for a lot of these students who are leading the the sit-in movement for example or the freedom rides why won’t he get on the bus and ride with the others um because he’s he’s he’s he’s they call him de laud as if he’s like the old wise man and and they’re pushing him to become more uh radical to be more aggressive and kings in this strange position because he he has the voice uh

9:53 that reaches not just the masses but reaches the president too and the president you know picks up the phone and calls him and and that gives him a kind of power a kind of influence that that very few other leaders can can even even imagine so he’s able to fight and push and and work for legislative change that you know makes a huge impact but it’s it also puts him in a position of

10:14 being seen as as a stodgy old um you know the you know your father’s generation of leaders and you know people like Malcolm X and are calling him an Uncle Tom Stokely Carmichael is saying you know forget this you know turn the other cheek stuff we want to talk about black power and King is juggling all of that and and it’s a it’s almost an impossible

10:34 position but he to his credit he listens to his critics he tries to engage with them right and and this this dispute uh seems to shape uh the uh you know the Civil Rights Movement perhaps at one of its greatest achievements uh in in the horrors of the the Selma marches uh then we get the the

10:57 Voting Rights Act so does that dispute help shape kind of the reactions uh s Selma among the different activists yeah I think it does I think that you know there’s always going to be frustration but they realize um that they’re they’re all fighting for black dignity they’re all fighting for justice and that um and and one of King’s great Powers is

11:17 his ability to sit down with folks like Carmichael and even with Malcolm X and to find out where their common ground is and and and you know Carmichael says to at one point you know I’m using you right you know that I’m I gain power by making you look weak the more I can call you out as as uh as a conservative the the more following I get with the young crowd and King says yeah I know I’ve

11:38 been used before it’s not the first time it won’t be the last and so I I guess that that brings us to our our final question which is uh our original question that we asked at the top of the show you know how does King dedicate his life to Justice and equality for all what is you know what is the in the end of the significance of

11:59 King’s life you know one of the things that really moves me most about King is that he he could have limited his work and his advisors were actually recommending that he limit his work to voting rights in the South because that was where he was most effective and they felt like that’s where he could have the most uh and longest lasting impact that if he could just keep getting black

12:20 voters registered um they would tip the balance of power locally in state legislatures and in Congress um and and that would be the way to make the most change for for black Americans but King again because his beliefs are rooted in the Bible that’s it’s not good enough for him you know after he wins the Nobel Peace Prize it’s it’s Coretta

12:41 who says to him we have a greater responsibility now we have to speak out on issues like poverty and hunger and and militarism um and and King takes that really seriously and and he doubles down every time when he could have stepped back every time when he’s threatened when when the FBI is on him when he’s stabbed in the chest when his home is is bombed you know he could have stepped back he

13:01 could have taken some time off but he refuses to do that he believes that this country can live up to the words of its promise these words rooted in our in our faith in God and in the Constitution and and he never quits you know he’s in the last years of his life he begins attacking Northern racism Northern segregation he begins taking on the war in Vietnam cost him his relationship

13:21 with LBJ and and to me that’s just extraordinary you know you know it’s very hard to find somebody who follows their ideals um all the way through regardless of the personal consequences and certainly he knows his life is at risk for for the way he’s doing this right I think that’s a great way to set up King uh so Jonathan I want to thank you very much for joining us and again congratulations

13:42 on the success of the buck king of Life thanks Tony and thank you all for joining us on this episode of scholar talks please check out our other interviews in the series topics in American history on our Channel