Civil Discourse: A Book Discussion with Joe Schmidt & Nichelle Pinkney | Constitution Day 2023

0:01 [Music] welcome everybody happy Constitution Day we’re here to talk about uh civil discourse uh the Constitution and what it means to you my name is Joe Schmidt and I am the director of teacher and student programs for the Bill of Rights Institute hi I’m Nichelle Pinkney and I am a curriculum director for social

0:22 studies and World languages in a large District in Texas and we are both the co-authors of a book called civil discourse classroom conversations for stronger communities and so I guess with that lead in we’ll start right off Michelle um so when you think about civil discourse since um as my colleague Rachel likes to say we literally wrote

0:44 the book until this course because that’s the title um what is civil discourse to you I would say that it is the communication of listening speaking and writing respectfully amongst people in society I think that respectful part is is a key idea that think it’s awesome sometimes because I

1:05 think we definitely have to share ideas right like I think that’s the discourse part of it um civil is also the part of that um so then why is it important why do we have to have both civil and discourse um besides some of the obvious but let’s let’s talk about that for a second well I think we live in a polarized

1:27 um World unfortunately um and I think a lot of things that we discuss within the K-12 and even higher ed I would even argue in higher ed um there are so many ideas and perspectives about what’s going on around us in our world that to understand it you have to have that

1:49 discourse but to also deeply understand it it also has to be like we said civil I grew up in a small town so if I didn’t when I went away to college in a big city um if I didn’t have the skill set to be able to listen to others and understand I don’t know how successful I would have been I lived amongst I went to a women’s

2:11 college and living amongst women from different backgrounds different countries different economic um backgrounds different um family nucleus like all those different things allowed for me to grow and have discourse because they had different experiences and different lived experiences I like that I I was working

2:32 with Dr Diana Hess she’s the dean of education at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and she wrote a book that I know we talk about in our book um called a controversy in the classroom and when she was speaking it was the first time I heard her say this but it was really like impactful for me she said you know when we’re engaging in these conversations I’m not trying to

2:53 change your opinion but I am trying to change your mind and the idea that I’m trying like in your mind is are you open-minded to the conversation that we were having and so there’s changing the opinion and then the changing of the mind is are you at least willing to hear me out to have that open mind I was like I never I

3:15 never thought about that way because she made that distinction about you know the mindset that you need to have uh to have a conversation and that was one of my takeaways listening to her talk recently was the wow you know are you open to ha to to having your mind changed but that doesn’t necessarily mean your opinion

3:35 and I know we oftentimes use those words interchangeably we’re like I want to change your mind but she said well I just want you to have an open mind and are you willing to change that mindset I think I think that’s pretty good because I think that is what we need sometimes um I know I’ve had discussion with people where we talk about you know a conversation can be a sharing

3:56 and comparing of ideas I love to use them because they rhyme uh sharing and comparing of ideas that doesn’t mean we have to win something I don’t need to convince you um and I think you know if we’re talking about the politicized world that you were talking about you know I like can you just imagine a world where people

4:16 who vote for different politicians can still just share ideas about like why do you believe that without the idea of I’m talking to you to try to change your your opinion um I think would definitely be a different different place in our in our communities yeah I think so I I think

4:36 about the years I taught government and taught AP government and how I really wanted to model that in my classroom like having an atmosphere of we may not all go to the polls and vote a certain way but we all understand whether we agree or disagree we all understand that there’s another

4:58 way to look at an issue or a topic or a candidate um in a different View and that was really important in where I taught because it was a large um single ticket voting area if the people in the area even voted so then this idea of if I’m going to vote and then when I vote I’m just going to go vote straight ticket because I don’t really want to I didn’t even learn about

5:20 anybody right and so then this idea of really changing a culture or mindset of students really wanting to engage I like that the points you make about like voting single ticket and you know the the idea of there’s two parties or multiple parties but I know you know today we have two major parties and George Washington famously wrote about

5:41 right like we should not have of these political parties and The Federalist Papers write about you know the worry about factions and I know um the bill Rights Institute we have a series that we call constitutional conversations where we talk about you know some contentious ideas or concepts that really have spanned time

6:03 you know whether it’s from 1787 until today or you know maybe throughout history um and one of the things I like to mention is you know I think that the founders and if we’re thinking about the writing of the Constitution because it is Constitution Day here everybody happy Constitution Day that

6:23 um I think they’ve made some really respectful decisions at least in terms of the idea that there’s no way to write a perfect document across time that there was gonna have to be a need for continued conversations for

6:43 amendments for you know those the different ways right a court system that wouldn’t would interpret the laws and so that’s one thing I like to highlight that yeah there is Ben tension in the Constitution ever since it was written even beforehand right Federalists Anti-Federalists and I don’t think that that’s a glitch in the Constitution I think that’s a feature and I think it’s

7:05 a feature that we need to take advantage of by being able to have the conversation about what’s going on in our country today what do we need what do we value and I’m wondering what you what you think or how you would approach the idea of civil discourse and teaching the Constitution today I’m so happy that you

7:26 said the idea that when the process of writing it and when writing it they already knew that it wasn’t perfect okay they they knew that that’s why the discussions were being had that’s why they had to go through everything to even get the Bill of Rights in there like all these processes like so if we do this and we’ll do this like all the

7:48 negotiations and the compromises they knew that it wasn’t perfect they knew that it excluded groups they knew that it didn’t include groups like all of these things they knew but they because they were preparing something that they didn’t even know like what is this going to look like um I saw Broadway play not too long ago

8:08 the 1776 one and it was interesting because I’ve taught this for years and looked at it but seeing this version which is completely different was like a oh okay another perspective another view another idea so I think it’s important as you teach the Constitution for students to understand that there was some civil discourse right there if you

8:30 want to talk about beginnings of civil discourse before they even started fighting before they even got into that room as like they say in Hamilton the room where it all happened they had all this discourse before whether it was side things and all this to come together to come up with this document that was going to guide a country that they didn’t even know that they had

8:51 intents to last but they didn’t know how long it would last I almost think sometimes like I wonder what they would think now looking at things would it be positive would it be negative what would Washington say about our faction slash political parties would he say I told you so or would he like this idea of

9:11 really having those discourse and that is uh I just think it’s important when you talk about how this was written like they had to have this and it may have looked different but they had to have had it the discussions were brought up the discussions were brought up of what we were going to keep in and what we weren’t going to put it even mentioned like that was had to be had that reminds me I used to run a mock

9:34 Constitutional Convention um when I was in the classroom and um as we would go through it I actually had one year a student formed a political party and what they had to do is we were there kind of their assessment was in a Google doc where they had to take notes they had to reference the Motions that were made how did they vote how did the discussion go you know kind of like Madison’s notes

9:55 right of the real Constitutional Convention and this one young man he kept making really really lengthy motions and people would say hold on a second it’s too long it’s too long as they’re typing away he said well if you joined my political party I will give you access to my Google doc so they could copy paste everything over right as time went on he got more and more people on

10:16 his political party and when they got a majority of the class they voted to remove me George Washington as president of the convention and so I went out and sat out in the hall right and then like all all chaos Reigns people are yelling you can’t do this you can’t have this and so then word spreads throughout the school like the other government hours you need to try it and I would tell future years

10:38 about it like I became really open like this happened once and it was the best discussion we ever had because it raised the point we just assume that because in 1787 these people got together wrote a constitution that well of course it was destined to work because it did and for me I like to highlight like there was no guarantee when everybody got in the room

11:00 that they would reach an agreement that they would have a document that what they made would work right we had just come out of the Articles of Confederation which did not work and it had to be readdressed again and so I loved that example everybody thought this system had fallen apart in the classroom when a political party rose up and uh had me removed but it was a great greatest example of

11:21 how imperfect everything really was even as they were striving for a perfect situation that there was no guarantees um that it would work and I like what you had said right that that all these discussions were had um but right it was famously they had to close the windows you know so they could have these open and honest conversations

11:43 even though it was the stifling Philadelphia summer um so Michelle what do you think about you know I’m thinking about those open and honest conversations today are we able to have those open and honest conversations if we’re thinking about celebrating the Constitution those writers knew the importance of those conversations how does that

12:03 translate today I think I think the importance of a conversations I just think that there are so many other factors that hinder those conversations so like you and I talk about this all the time um when we meet with people like the idea of setting up guard rails like this

12:24 idea of I want to hear what you have to say I want to hear your other opinions but so to ensure that every voice is being heard in this situation here are a few things that should go into play so I think a lot of people and I’m even not talking like just in classroom settings I’m talking about when you’re sitting around um Labor Day weekends coming around

12:45 um I’m Southern so there’s barbecue and all that like this idea that we’re gonna come around and if we’re going to have this discussion I need to know like hey Joe’s going to come in there with that with this information so what are what are my guard rules like I’m not going to talk to Joe about this but we can talk about this this and this we do it all the time we just don’t call it guardrails and we don’t look at it the

13:07 way that we are talking about it in the text or different things like that I think everyone knows that conversations need to be had I just think what’s happened in the past in the past few years is those conversations look different they’ve gotten a little heated because the guard rails aren’t there or because that um understanding of I’m here to not

13:30 change that person’s mind like you said earlier like Miss Hess told you I’m not here to change their mind I just want you to have an open mind you can still leave here today and say I don’t agree with anything Michelle said um but it was nice to hear it and I felt heard even if you didn’t agree and vice versa so I think people know that it’s important I think they know that this is

13:52 how our country grows I just think the guard rails haven’t been set and there’s just so many um ways to make it difficult how can we use then Constitution Day if we’re thinking about teachers in classrooms across the country looking at the Constitution listening to this segment right now how

14:13 do we help those teachers and those students then get ready for either a classroom discussion or that after graduation discussion out in the quote-unquote you know the real world people talk about what how do we help with those guard rails if we feel like they’re not there as much I’m a huge

14:33 proponent of social studies in elementary so I think it starts early as kindergarten right um I think um Constitution Day now should I sit there and tell a kid we have a constitution in kindergarten and all this no but we start building this love of civics and this love of this document

14:55 that’s going to guide us throughout our career as early as kindergarten so we start then and I think it scaffolds up so I would not have the same conversation that I would have with a group of sixth graders the same conversation with a group of ninth graders um so that kind of that’s my first thing but I guess I have that view as a curriculum director like don’t use my

15:17 don’t use the Constitution Day activity for sixth grade and um to agree um because it’s different people different ages different understandings so that’s the first thing so starting as early as Kinder I would have these conversations second of all I would also look at what does the Constitution look like to different levels so for instance and

15:38 maybe so maybe grade banding and I know Bill of Rights has things where they can utilize so we’re going to look at components of the Constitution we’re not saying the whole thing but if I’m just looking at the Preamble at one level and we’re really dissecting with each one of those words mean and then I think you know also I’m a huge proponent of transparency and opening the doors of

16:00 our classrooms and so the idea of sending it home prior to Constitution daytime um we’re going to talk on um in September we’re going to talk about the constitution in our great state it’s a whole week and um some other places is today so sending it home a previous week this is what we’re going to talk about here’s some questions you can ask your student about here’s our reading about

16:21 the information that we’re going to talk about so now you’ve opened up the communication Beyond just your classroom and some of the things that we assume other people know and they may not know so if I send a reading home here’s the reading we’re going to read about the Constitution here’s the blurb we’re going to study um here are the guiding questions that we have that we’ll be asking your students it’s changing you know like I

16:44 say changing the story of what’s going on in my classroom versus what others think and I know you know I love to prompt you to go back you have the best story about a classroom Constitution classroom agreements classroom contract however whatever term you want to call it you have the best story because of your Signing Day can you talk about how

17:05 you took some of those ideas of agreeing how we were going to live together and you use that in setting up your classroom I love telling the story because now looking back on it it’s like it was a success when I initially were doing it I don’t know how successful I thought it was going to be um just like our um our framers of the Constitution right like I thought I it went well so

17:29 um my first second year my first year teaching um I um I didn’t have great classroom management um pretty much I was about the same age as my students maybe three years older than them and so I struggled really uh with classroom management and I remember reading um we were going into John Locke and I was like oh maybe a social contract

17:49 theory and I was like cool I wonder if I could pull that off right and so um we um and then I read the Harry’s Wong book and so I was trying to do this but tying standards what we’re talking about and what Harry said because I was like I’m gonna quit soon um and so that’s how the the signing day comes about so the first initial time we do this we just built the classroom

18:10 contract like most people do we’re going to set up our ideas and our rules and we just put it up well then I saw that the buy-in wasn’t as good and so the second year I was like my campus kept doing um the signing day for athletes right and I was teaching AP so none of those kids were signing

18:31 to go play sports anyway so I was like I’m gonna make a big deal about how we’re learning how to work together and all this and so that’s the signing day concept came from that and so what we did was we came together at the and said this is how our classroom is going to work um I want to say it was it was close to an election year it was an election year

18:52 so we were going to have these discussions we’re going to talk about things but how are we going to do that and then I told my principal um I’m gonna have a I want the kids to sign it I want you to come like like this is going to be a big deal and he was like you want me to come yes and I want the coaches to come and I want all these people to come because I was trying to get the buy-in from Outsiders as well as

19:14 what I’m asking them to do they are agreeing to it and so it just blossomed from there where it was literally like a thing I did when I taught AP Government when I moved to U.S history when I taught um world geography it just changed differently on how we did but it was a big deal signing and everything and the

19:34 students owned it and it was like like kids were like oh Signing Day is coming up right when they would come to my class the following year my sister told me about your signing day it was pretty cool um but initially I don’t know if I knew that it was going to be that great it was just a way to get involved initially well I think there’s so much Freedom

19:56 like Liberty and students like you think it would be the opposite of well let’s sit down and come up with a bunch of rules but I think if you have the buy-in it’s so different and I know that for me the story I like to tell is you know we would set up our agreements for how we’re gonna have our conversations and then we would agree to it I didn’t

20:17 have the signing day I wish I had the signee it’s such a great thing and um we would talk about like how we did so at the end of a discussion and we you know students would say oh well we promise not to talk over each other but we were talking over each other and I had one group that you know I kind of let I kind of let it run I let them give the feedback on how to do it and one

20:37 group said Mr Schmidt we are struggling with our agreements will you like they said will you yell at us more and I was like okay hold on a second I just want to make sure I’m hearing you correctly and they’re like yeah they’re like we are struggling with this we want you to help us better understand

20:59 and um at the Bill of Rights Institute you know we spend so much time talking about you know the Liberty that comes with self-governance and for me it’s such a good example the students it wasn’t a set of rules that they had to follow it was things that they agreed were best for them and that gave them like ownership of what it was and so when

21:20 they wanted to you know quote unquote be yelled at more that wasn’t a me that wasn’t a heavy-handed you need to be quiet and listen to my classroom that was them recognizing that is how they needed support and so I always loved that example like if you’re going on day one and you yell at kids and yeah you can yell at them you can get them to be

21:40 quiet but that buy-in that you talked about and for me that was that example of students understanding the support they needed they used the word yell at us but I don’t think they saw it as a negative they thought saw it as what they needed to thrive in that form of self-governance right we thought we could do it this way but it turns out we need we need some

22:01 support in there as well and I think that that’s something that we both agree on that you know allowing students to have those the say in how the room will run you will get that buy-in I think you’re actually going to get a lot more of what you want out of it as a teacher by including the students in those discussions closing thoughts this is how

22:23 we’re celebrating constant Constitution Day I would say to we like to say this all the time Jump in like jump jump in and allow students to see the like we talked about earlier like the role that conversations and discourse and understanding others

22:45 backgrounds and where they came from allowed for such a strong document to be made even if certain groups were not initially represented there was still conversation about every last one of those groups that weren’t represented even though they didn’t make it in initially and all that the conversations were had the

23:07 discussions were had even uh Provisions were made for different ones if you look at historically but celebrate this document that our Founders thought hey it’s going to be a foundation that can be grow that can grow and be better because that’s what they I think that’s what they thought it’s gonna grow it’s

23:28 gonna get better I’m going to add to it like they had a whole process for it for a reason well Michelle as always I appreciate your time I always feel like I get smarter every time we talk and we talk a lot so that’s always such a great thing um it’s Constitution Day I’m glad that you were able to give us some time today I feel like we’re all a little bit smarter because of that uh some great insights on civil discourse with the

23:49 founders uh we’re talking about the Constitution I think there’s so many key things not only back in 1787 but are relevant all the way through today so I want to thank thank you for giving up some of your time and I’ll just close by saying happy Constitution Day thank you