Intro/Outro (00:06)
From the Bill of Rights Institute, Fabric of History weaves together US history, founding principles, and what all of this means to us today. Join us as we pull back the curtains of the past to see what’s inside.

Haley (00:22)
Disney World. Disney Plus. Donald Duck. The legacy of Walt Disney is all around us. But what do we actually know about the creator of the multi-industry empire we have all grown up with? In our last episode of 2020, Mary, Gary, and Eryn are joined by special guest Tracey Downey, teacher and longtime Disney World cast member, to examine the relationship between the entrepreneur Walt Disney and his company today. What can Tracey’s unique insider perspective teach us about the thoughtfulness that goes into the Disney experience? How important is Walt’s vision to the present-day company?

Mary (01:02)
Hello, Fabric of History listeners, this is Mary, and I am joined once again by Gary and Eryn.

Gary (01:08)
Hello.

Eryn (01:09)
Hi.

Mary (01:09)
And today we also have a special guest with us. But I will introduce her in just a moment because first I have to make a confession. When I’m alone in my car, I still belt out Part of Your World from The Little Mermaid with my entire heart and soul. I put everything into this long because I did this as a little girl, and I’m still doing it as a 30 something-year-old woman. And if you’re wondering what this Disney confession has to do with the Bill of Rights Institute, let me explain. At BRI, we are all about creating resources that engage and empower teachers and students as they think about what it means to be a part of civil society. What does it mean to be part of a community? One of our curriculums that supports this mission is called My Impact Challenge. This curriculum, as the name would imply, challenges students to think about the ways in which they can have an impact in their community. BRI believes that entrepreneurship plays a pivotal role in this. And this brings me back to Walt Disney. Disney is an American entrepreneur whose vision and legacy has a near-daily presence.

Mary (02:25)
If I ask someone, what’s your earliest Disney memory? Or what’s your favorite Disney movie? What’s your favorite Disney song? Chances are they have an answer for you. This got us talking about all things Disney. Who was Walter Disney? What’s his story? And why does his image? Why is his legacy still very much affecting us today? Now I’m back to our special guest. Tracey Downey is with us today. Hi, Tracey.

Tracey (02:51)
Hi.

Mary (02:52)
Thank you so much for being with us.

Tracey (02:54)
My pleasure.

Mary (02:55)
Tracey is a history teacher and has been a Disney cast member for the last 25 years. As Gary, Eryn, and I are talking about Disney, we knew we had to get Tracey on the podcast with us to join in this conversation. So we’re really excited, Tracey, that you took some time from your busy school day to chat with us. We’ve talked about entrepreneurship before on this podcast. We’ve talked about people who take risks, who start out with an idea and they have hard work, they have good luck, and they sort of live the American dream. And I think Walt Disney is an example of that. But his dream, his vision is just so much a presence in everyday life. Like it’s not just in history textbooks. It’s on Disney Plus, it’s on our t-shirts, it’s on our watches, our kids are obsessed with movies. So why is that? Why does he stick around so vividly, I think is a question that we really want to get into.

Tracey (03:54)
For speaking as someone from Florida. The company itself is a huge presence here. But everybody that works for them, for the Disney company really, truly wholeheartedly believes in Walt’s vision and his dream of that you can dream and create the most magical place on Earth, but it takes people to bring it to life. And we’re honored to be those people. And there’s the people that do it for high school, and they do it for a few years and they leave, but everybody ends up coming back. Then there’s the lifers like me who have been here for tons and tons of years. We’ve grown up there. I was 19 years old when I started there. So everything about my life to now, I mean, I’m 44, but everything about my life, how I handle things, how I interact with my students, how I teach certain programs, everything is about that magic and that remembering that everybody has a child inside and everybody I mean, I can’t go through life being a business person. It never worked for me because it’s instilled in me that you have to remain young, you have to have that heart.

Eryn (04:56)
I do think it’s fascinating that in hearing you say that, Tracey, because probably you would say at the core of it that Walt Disney was a business person. And so I think it’s really interesting how he managed to kind of coalesce those two things together where he was a business person and this entrepreneur, but still had that idea of we all have the child inside of us, because I think we do keep those so separate today. And he somehow managed to not only put this together but do so and create this multibillion-dollar company.

Mary (05:36)
Maybe we should take a step back for a second. We’ll take a quick break and maybe talk a little bit about who Disney was and how we got to this point where he became a businessman that built a business on making magic and dreams. So we’ll take a quick break and we’ll be right back.

Mary (05:51)
Hey, Fabric of History listener learned anything new yet? At BRI, we have a lot more to share. Check out our YouTube channel in the description, where we explore US history and civics with scholars and teachers. We update weekly and would love for you to join the conversation. And now back to our show.

Mary (06:15)
Before the break, I threw out the question, who was Walt Disney? What’s his backstory? We love backstories here at the Bill of Rights Institute. And I think Walt Disney has a pretty interesting one. He comes from pretty humble beginnings, and he was interested in drawing when he was very young, and he used to sell his sketches to his neighbors. So I think maybe his passion for illustration and the creative side of things, it seems like it was there pretty early. And he joins forces with his brother pretty early in his career, he works as a cartoon advertiser, then joins up with his brother Roy, who I just learned was really more of the businessman of the two. And I just think that’s fascinating. Tracey, what can you tell us about their partnership or how they work together?

Tracey (07:06)
First of all, the brothers were really close, so they came from humble beginnings, like you said, in Marceline, Missouri, which is this itty bitty teeny, tiny town, and they had to break free. And as they moved and Walt has these visions and these ideas and his ideas get away from him. They’re going to draw, and that’s perfect. And Roy is going to help, and then he’s going to draw more. And Roy is like, okay, do you have the time? The really good description would be Walt is the balloon and Roy was the string. So Walt is like, oh, my gosh, I have an idea. I’m so excited. And then we’re going to do this. We’re going to do this. And Roy was like, okay, just hold on. And they would be there to pull him back down to say, this is what we have to do. I mean, Walt went bankrupt, and Roy is the one that was like, okay, let me try to get these finances together. And it’s the reason why when Walt passed away, Roy was able to finish his vision because he knew exactly what Walt wanted.

Gary (08:00)
When one thinks of entrepreneurs, they might just think of inventing something or producing something. And if dreams and magic is what it is, that’s a really fascinating illustration of how to take what was a drive to create. But then you said also, how do you make that happen? How do you get that to people? How do you create structures around that? And I think that word vision is a really important part of that. How do you allow the vision to flourish but also convey it to other people? Because he’s not doing it alone. And I think how did Walt Disney share his vision?

Tracey (08:40)
I think from the get-go, I think when Snow White hit it big, and I think he saw the ability to really do something special. And he was an avid railroad collector. Like, he loved railroad trains and cars so much that he actually put one in his backyard just so that he could let his daughters drive around on a railroad, which I think is the coolest thing ever. And he really got upset with going to theme parks with his daughters and sitting on benches and watching them participate, as opposed to being a participant. That was a really big drive for why Disneyland was even started was he wanted to have family entertainment where everybody was involved and not just the kids. So I think when he decided to do this, this is just my opinion. But when he decided to do this, he looked at so many elements of what do we need to do to bring this to life? You can’t make a theme park. And I do stress the word theme park because that’s a big deal at Disney. It’s a theme park. It’s not an amusement park. Everything is an attraction. Everything has a story because it was really important to him to make sure that everything fit into that world that he wanted.

Tracey (09:54)
It was never about the money when he created these parks, it was always about bringing something back to the families.

Mary (10:01)
I really like the imagery of the balloon in the string, and that makes me think of two things. One, I’m definitely a string. I’m that person on the team who’s like, okay, but I think you have to have both. You have to have the Walt side of it who has this vision. And it’s like, I want the whole family involved in this, and then you need someone like Roy, who’s like, okay, what’s step one? What’s step two? So I really like just stepping back and thinking about this as an illustration of entrepreneurship that you have to work with other people and you have to see where your strengths are and where you need help. So I think that’s a great example of that. But also, it’s such a success story. I mean, you have these theme parks where I’m a new mom, so my son is almost 15 months old, and I’ve already had the conversation with my husband. When do we go to Disney World? Because I’m on the East Coast, so Disney World would be our option. When do we have to take him there to see to have this experience? It was such a big idea at the time in the 60s, and it’s still in 2020. We’re still having that conversation. That magic still there. So I think that’s a pretty powerful testament to both the balloon and the string. God, I love that image. Thanks, Tracey.

Eryn (11:26)
What I think also is really interesting, like Mary was saying about how this kind of builds on the idea of entrepreneurship. What’s really fascinating as well is the fact that even the definition in our might impact challenge curriculum ties entrepreneurship to the market economy and human beings wanting stuff, the process of trading goods and services. And when you think about Walt Disney now, I will argue Roy as well, as entrepreneurs, it seems so much more complex than that. And knowing that there wasn’t necessarily like one specific good and service that they were trying to trade. But it was like this idea. And we keep saying this dream, and not only that Walt Disney was so passionate about these dreams and these ideas, but knowing that there was a demand for that as well.

Tracey (12:29)
Well, he jumped on the idea of, like I said, that baby boom and coming off of World War Two, it was so tragic that people wanted something good. And you’re right. When you say the idea of selling a dream, you want to buy my dream and be able to sell it. I believe we talked about this. Gary was Disney World, Disneyland, all of them sell not necessarily to they sell that idea to different ages. So if you go to Disney, if you bring your 15-month-old, you’re going to have an amazing time. But when you bring him, when he’s three, it’s going to be a totally different experience for him and you. And then it goes through the stages of life. And Walt was so good at making everything inclusive that when you walk through that park, whether you have a child attached to you or a grandchild attached to you or by yourself, I’ve done it before. Just by yourself walking through that park, it’s magical. Every single time. Every time has a different story, every time has a different experience. And that was all he cared about, was making those stories happen so you could leave and say, I have a story to tell you.

Gary (13:46)
Yeah. In the curriculum, we know that a crucial part of entrepreneurship is empathy. Right. And I think the way you’re describing it is really interesting in terms of he sees an opportunity to provide experiences, to provide. It could be lots of emotions, really. There are certainly Disney films that make me cry every single time or feel joy or things like this. And to want to provide that to people and to say, like, I know that I think that’s a great point to say, like, no matter who you are, wherever you’re at whatever age, part of that is also the experience over time. Right. Is recapturing what it’s like to remember. But now it’s different this time, but it’s still awesome in a kind of a different way. And designing something to provide to address that need for cool experiences, having that drive something, not trying to make an experience to sell me something, but it’s about the experience and whatever needs to do to have that happen, whether or not that invites me to travel out of state or whether or not that’s provided on TV or whether or not to go to the movie or own a shirt or whatever it does, it succeeds in doing so.

Gary (15:06)
And that’s the eye that I think an entrepreneur possesses, even outside of, as you said, the money part, we see a problem, we are satisfying a need, and that need can be joy, can be emotion.

Tracey (15:22)
Well, even with it being closed, it was closed from March 14 to July-ish, somewhere in July. The line to get into the park the day it opened was ridiculous. They let the cast members come back first. And the emotion for the cast members, like walking through the gate when they let us back in for the first time, it’s our home. It was so incredible to watch everybody go from all these emotions, like, oh, my gosh, we’re back. And then people were crying. And for me, it was incredible. It’s a piece of who I am. And it’s kind of like wearing a shirt that’s been passed down or something that you found. It gives us something tangible to hold. I don’t have to buy something to hear somebody singing, let it go. And I start screaming at the top of my lungs, let it go or Moana. It’s a reaction that was driven by a man who said, let’s make everyone happy. What a novel idea. Disney has this amazing team called Imagineers. The Imagineers are the key to everything at Disney World. It’s a dream job for any kid that learns about it. So Walt and his balloon would say, this is what I want. And then he would look at these people, these Imagineers, and go, make it happen. And then Roy would say, this is how much money you have. And they’d say, okay. And he was extremely detail-oriented when it came down to the look, the way it was going to act. I mean, take, for example, if anyone’s been to Disney World, the Pirates of the Caribbean, what person would think that the Pirates needed to have hair on their legs? Walt did because when you go under in the boat and there’s a leg hanging down on the bridge, it should be hairy. It’s a pirate. I don’t think that I don’t check people’s legs when I walk by, you know what I mean? But it’s like, oh, my gosh. And everybody notices it. Oh, my gosh, he has hair on his legs. It’s something that those Imagineers are really good at. And even without Walt being around today, they still know what he would have wanted. They still know that he would have wanted attention to detail. He would have wanted it to be something that people would enjoy.

Gary (17:40)
It’s absolutely worthwhile to take a look at Walt Disney’s life and how he had not only dreams and visions, but how he created these and shared these with others. But unfortunately, Walt Disney passed away in 1966. And yet since then, there’s a lot of fidelity to this vision. This legacy does continue. Tracey, I was wondering if you can share with us a little bit of ways where Disney, the company, the organization, keeps this fidelity to the vision of Disney, the person.

Tracey (18:21)
I’ll try. The theme park is what I know. So my best example is to give it to you through there. And we can talk about the movies, but those are always they seem to always be that magical quality. But if you look at the theme parks, there are certain things that are done every single day at that Park, Walt Disney World specifically, because that’s what Walt wanted. When you go through training for Walt Disney World. When I started in 1995, we did two days’ worth of something called Traditions, which was a class to teach you how to become a cast member. And I’ll never forget them. The very first thing they did was take you through the train station, and there’s this big Mickey floral. If you can picture it, it’s got a big Mickey head. And they say this is the curtain. And I remember thinking to myself, that’s a flower garden. And he said the reason I say curtain is because everything at Disney is a stage. Walt wanted you to perform for these people. He wanted you to make these people feel welcome at home. So when you go into the train station, you’re now going through the curtains and you’re on stage.

Tracey (19:27)
Well, they have you after training, they have you look at it and they say, take a look at the Castle. You’ll never see it the same way again. And I, who had been to Disney World twice growing up, thought, what does that mean? Oh, my gosh. And then they take you and they teach you everything you need to know, from the two-finger point to the trash cans have to be 25ft apart because people naturally throw trash at 30ft. All this attention to details. And after your two days of training, they bring you back up on Main Street before the park opens. And they say, now look at the Castle. How do you feel? And you realize that you’re now in charge of the story. You’re now a part of this, and you don’t lose that. And everybody that works there lives it from even the stuff that we say, have a magical day. You say have a magical day instead of having a good day. Do you know why? Have a good day is not something you say to someone who might be having something that’s a bad day. Like, let’s say they just got news and they’re coming into the park and they’re there because they need time away from something like bad news or sad news or anything. When you say have a magical day, whether you’re having a bad day or a good day, it makes you stop and go, that’s pretty cool. I can have a magical day. I mean, I have a good day. I’ll have a magical day. Or like I said, the two-finger point. We would never point in a direction and tell someone, go that way. You would never do that. What I found fascinating recently was the reason we do the two-finger point is I always thought it was at a courtesy. You always use your two fingers and you say, Go this way, go this way. It was recently told to me, I read two autobiographies of Walt, and he held a cigarette when he walked through the park, and he was like, Go this way, go this way. And so the myth or the story is that the two-finger point is because of Walt smoking, but you’re not allowed to smoke in the park anymore. They got rid of that. But Walt did allow it when it opened because it was really popular back then.

Gary (21:19)
From your description, it’s like the vision of entrepreneurs like Walt Disney is something that can be inspired. It can be shared by other people. When you look at something in the park, the movies, even the shows, now that you get that, not only did he empathize with people, but you, the viewer, grow to empathize with people. You think, if I were a child or another person of any age coming into the park or any of these things, this is invitation to see things through someone else’s eyes. I mean, everything that goes into that incredible amount of detail, it sounds like it’s not just theory, it’s like, designed to invite you to continue to see the world through his vision.

Tracey (22:07)
Well, he did it on so many different levels. If you took the time, if you ever came to Disney, you guys would just all have to come. But if you go to Disney, everything is built for the age groups. So for children, all the window sales on the bottom floor, like when you’re walking down Main Street, are lower. They’re not at a standard window sale height. If you go to a house and the windows are a certain level at Disney, they’re all lower. Why? So the children can feel like they’re part of it. But we also want to make the adults feel important. So we build these facades to look like two and three stories, but they’re really only a two-story building, but there’s three floors on it or four floors on it. And he was grateful and gracious to the people that were part of it. So if you look on Main Street, all of the windows have names of companies, but those companies are actual people’s names to thank them for being a part of the whole process. So, people that walk through it, every detail is making sure that everything is included, even down to the smell. On Main Street, when you walk past the cookie store, you want to go buy a cookie. Why? Because they’re blowing the smell, the cookie smell out so that the guests can embrace that and be like, it’s all a piece of this part of it. I love it. I need to hold the balloons. I need this. I don’t know. I always tell people it’s like a bubble bath. I just want to lay in and be like, look at all this stuff.

Mary (23:30)
Tracey, I am struck by as you’re talking about all of the detail that goes into the theme park and of course, yourself, you are a teacher yourself. I’m struck by the parallels with teaching. So just having I always thought of teaching as being a stage. Like, you’re on stage, you’re performing, you have to have empathy with what you’re teaching and who you’re teaching. And I think if you can make your students feel like they’re surrounded by it, then that’s just all the better. How has Disney affected the way that you teach? We have a lot of teachers probably listening and Disney enthusiasts. I’m sure.

Tracey (24:12)
For me, one of the biggest things that I’ve learned, Disney has everything inside of me, like who I am is because of Walt Disney and the vision he had and the training. So if a child if a student comes to me, whether I teach elementary or high school when they’re upset and we all have that student that gets riled up or gets angry or something like that, there’s so many people that just kind of blatantly, like, well, they’re in a bad mood, and I am the first to squat down and get eye level. If I’m Elementary, I have a student that was six foot four. He was huge. And I was like, hold on, hold on. And I pulled a chair in front of him and stood on the chair. I’m like, all right, listen. Now I’m eye level. Talk to me like, what’s going on? Because in Disney, that’s what you do. You get down to people’s eye level, you talk to them. My room is set up. It is a timeline. It starts in the 1800 and goes all the way to two days ago when we put a newspaper on the wall.

Tracey (25:03)
But it is tangible items. It’s things that people can touch and see, so it makes for an experience. So when school starts, the kids want to be in my classroom because they want to see history alive. And I think that you walk in and everyone always makes the joke, even if they don’t know me, they’re like, oh, my God, it’s like Disney World in history class. I’m like, yeah, I did it.

Mary (25:22)
Well, even just from listening to you talk from the last 20 minutes or so, that’s like the highest compliment because there’s so much attention to detail in every single thing in that theme park that having that much attention to what you’re teaching your students, I think, is just like a gold standard. My two cents, I was big on having lots of things up in the room, too.

Gary (25:45)
So cool doing what it takes to have people have that cool experience. You can be inspired to do the same, to have people have cool experiences having things on the wall, or if you don’t have the opportunity to have stuff on a classroom wall, which is unfortunately very much the case this year. There’s still a need. Teachers are able to fulfill. It’s partially learning, partially emotional. It’s very much experiential. Like we’re talking about something, experiencing something new, or looking back. It’s an opportunity when you’re teaching, like, I want you, the students, I guess, and other teachers, too. But for you, the students, to have this experience, to think and feel about this thing or these things, and absolutely teaching can be something like that, to fulfill that, to understand each other, to empathize with each other, and to create these experiences for you, with you again, meaning the students are really anybody learning how that is done is worthwhile to try to understand others and to invite them to dream and experience along with you. I admit, Tracey, what a delight talking to you. The energy you have is infectious from a student point of view, who wouldn’t want to learn more because you’re just so into it.

Tracey (27:14)
I’m pretty nerdy, but I’m proud of it. It’s good. But I think it’s interesting, too, because I used to be a trainer at Walt Disney World. I used to teach not only entertainment people like how to do how to do parades and things like that, but I also trained. I did human resources, I did the welcome to your job. This is Magic Kingdom. And to have these people come in as Ted off the street, and they’re just like, I’m here for the job, and I’m done with training them. And they’re like, wow, I work at Space Mountain, and you’re like, yeah, you do. And some of the cast members have taken it to a totally different level. I had the pleasure of working with someone at Haunted Mansion. I was filling in one day, and I worked at Jungle Cruise my first year when I started at Disney, I was on the College program, which is also really important that teachers should know that they have a College program. But I worked at Jungle Cruise, and they had sent me over to the Haunted Mansion, and I got to work with this lady. Her name was Tina.

Tracey (28:12)
And I was waiting. I don’t know if anyone’s been in there, but there’s a stretch room where it feels like you’re in an elevator and the walls are getting bigger. Anyway, so she’s standing there talking to me, and she starts telling me about the ghosts and Haunted Mansion. And I said, how do you know all this? How do you know this? And she was like Because everybody knows. People that worked at Haunted Mansion created it. The 99 ghosts that are residing in the Haunted Mansion have names and backstories. And not because an Imagineer told them, but because those people have worked there and they have stories. And I think that’s so cool. Nobody asked them to do that.

Gary (28:49)
Yeah, so cool. This invitation to collaborate and to be able to create I mean, that sounds inspiring, too. How can you be around creative people like that and not want to contribute, which sounds a lot like it’s, bringing us back full circle to how we started this whole conversation. Right. How can people contribute wherever they are, as long as they keep dreaming? It’s almost worth taking a break to think about that.

Gary (29:33)
So we started off the conversation talking about how there are many ways to contribute to society, and among them is through entrepreneurship. So the question I have is what can we learn from the story of Walt Disney as it pertains to this?

Tracey (29:46)
I think if we had the opportunity, if we could go back, if we could have Walt walk in the room and see kids in high school and see kids in college and learning about things, I think his drive or what he would say to us is that you have to be passionate about whatever you do. You’re going to make something yourself. I mean, this was my vision. I wanted to draw. I wanted to make people happy. So I followed my heart as opposed to worrying about the business model. I wasn’t told what to do. I didn’t have a lesson plan. I went with what worked and believing in myself, believing in the idea. I was able to create something that he couldn’t. I mean, I think if he walked in today, I think he would be shocked. I think he would be happy. But I wholeheartedly believe that if I could bring Walt Disney back, which would be weird, but if I could, I wholeheartedly believe that he would tell anybody that you become an entrepreneur the minute you realize you can.

Mary (30:47)
That’s so powerful. And I think that’s a message that not only young people, everyone needs to hear that it’s not just young people, but anyone. If you think you can do it. And I think if you seek out the help of others who can help you along the way, then I’m starting to sound like Dr. Seuss and oh places you’ll go, but it’s 99% guaranteed. So I think that’s a great way to tie a bow on the magic of Disney. Tracey, thank you so much for being with us today. Really appreciate it. I know I learned a lot, and I was a skeptic, but I’m ready to plan our first Walt Disney World vacation with my little guy. Maybe not this year, but soon. So thank you again.

Tracey (31:30)
Contact me and I’ll walk you through all the steps.

Mary (31:32)
I will definitely do that again. Thank you so much, Tracey. And to all our listeners out there, you can share with us your favorite Disney memories. What does entrepreneurship mean to you? Any thoughts you have on this at comments@fabricofhistory.org? And until we see you again, have a magical day.

Intro/Outro (31:55)
The Bill of Rights Institute engages, educates, and empowers individuals with a passion for the freedom and opportunity that exists in a free society. Check out our educational resources and programs on our website mybri.org. Any questions or suggestions for future episodes? We’d love to hear from you. Just email us at comments@fabricofhistory.org and don’t forget to visit us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram to stay connected and informed about future episodes. Thank you for listening.