The Declaration of Independence and Revolutionary War with Edward Larson | BRI Scholar Talks

0:06 For this episode of Scholar Talks, the

0:08 guiding question is, what was the

0:09 relationship between Revolutionary War

0:12 battlefield deeds and the inspiring

0:15 words and principles of the Declaration

0:17 of Independence?

0:19 Our guest Edward Larson is a professor

0:22 of law and history at Pepperdine

0:24 University. He is the Pulitzer

0:26 Prizewinning author of Summer for the

0:28 Gods, which is on the Scopes trial, and

0:31 several books on the American founding

0:34 including The Return of George

0:35 Washington, Liberty and Slavery in the

0:38 Birth of a Nation, and his latest book

0:41 today’s topic, Declaring Independence:

0:44 Why 1776

0:46 Matters. I am Tony Williams, senior

0:49 fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute.

0:50 And I I want to welcome you to another

0:53 episode of Scholar Talks in the America

0:56 250 series. Ed, I want to thank you very

0:58 much for joining us.

1:00 >> Thank, you, for, having, me, on.

1:01 >> Great., I, I, love, your, your, newest, book.

1:04 Um and I I love to you so many people

1:08 talk about the declaration and its

1:10 principles uh sort of um you know

1:12 intellectually, abstractly. Other people

1:15 focus on the war. you’re it’s one one of

1:18 the few books I’ve ever read that that

1:20 bring those two strains together. You

1:22 you definitely really weave those

1:24 together., Uh, so, so, I’m, I’m I’m, eager, to

1:27 talk the about the book. It’s it’s

1:29 really excellent.

1:30 >> Well,, thank, you., Yeah,, that’s, exactly

1:32 what I was trying to do because my

1:36 question there are other great books. No

1:38 doubt about it. Um think of this recent

1:41 television series by Ken Burns. Think

1:43 about Rich Atkinson’s great books on the

1:45 war. Um, but they’re looking at the

1:48 Revolutionary War, what happened in the

1:50 battlefield. Um, McCullum did the same

1:52 thing in 1796. It’s all about battles.

1:55 Um, what I tried to do was people always

1:58 talk about even then they talk about the

2:01 spirit of 1776. You hear it now, you

2:04 don’t talk about the spirit of the

2:05 American Revolution. They talk about the

2:07 spirit of 1776. And as a longtime

2:10 history professor who would teach that

2:12 era,

2:13 my curiosity as we approached the 250th

2:16 anniversary was why does 1776, I know

2:20 why the revolution matters, but why does

2:22 1776 matter? Indeed, it did at the time.

2:26 Adams, Jefferson, they talked about the

2:28 spirit of 1776. Indeed, if you look at

2:31 the seal of the United States, which was

2:33 created in 1777

2:37 by Charles Thompson, the the secretary

2:40 of the uh Continental Congress, you can

2:43 see it on the back of your $1 bill, the

2:46 great seal. And it says in Latin

2:48 something new under the sun. It’s got

2:50 that pyramid with the eye. Um but then

2:53 it says at bottom it says 1776

2:57 in Norman. 1776, Lincoln talked about

3:00 1776, later Frederick Douglas, you name

3:04 it, Franklin Delaner Roosevelt during

3:06 World War II. So why did that year

3:10 matter was my question as opposed to the

3:13 Revolution. And so to do that what I did

3:16 was I just

3:19 looked at basically all the newspapers

3:23 and read them for the year and I looked

3:26 at um the letters from the founders but

3:29 also from the troops in the field.

3:30 They’re they’re ava generally available

3:33 but I read them for the year to see what

3:36 was what was happening in that year that

3:39 made that year important. It doesn’t

3:41 mean that 1775 wasn’t important or 1781

3:45 with the Battle of Yorktown. They’re

3:46 important, too. But why does 1776

3:49 matter? And that became my challenge.

3:51 And when doing so, I ended up right

3:53 where you said. It turns out it’s an

3:56 interplay of words inspiring deeds and

4:00 actions actions inspiring ideals. It’s a

4:04 mixture of the two. It is not

4:06 exclusively one or the other.

4:09 >> Great., So,, so, jumping, into, the, book., So,

4:12 so how did the resistance against Great

4:14 Britain and the pamphlet war in the

4:17 1760s, 1770s represent American

4:20 arguments for for rights and

4:22 self-government, government by consent.

4:27 The you go back really to in a major way

4:31 to 1765.

4:34 You have Otis’ pamphlet, magnificent

4:36 pamphlet, other ones by Hopkins

4:38 Delaney. These various pamphlets that go

4:41 back to the Stamp Act crisis where the

4:44 issue was taxation without

4:46 representation

4:48 and Americans fearful for their property

4:54 argued against what Parliament was

4:56 doing. It wasn’t just the taxation

4:59 without representation. Was also the

5:01 Quebec act and the proclamation of 17 um

5:04 63 taking the west and it was also the

5:08 declaratory act and the then the towns

5:12 and tariffs the tea act. Uh but those

5:14 were all directed against parliament and

5:19 were really rooted in econ economics.

5:23 And what changed in 1776

5:27 was a new conception of what the problem

5:30 was.

5:31 They realized in 1776

5:35 that the problem was not taxation

5:37 without representation.

5:40 That was simply a symptom of the real

5:44 problem was authoritarian rule. The real

5:47 problem was the monarch. You know, you

5:50 only have to go back to the mo probably

5:52 the most important document of 1775, the

5:55 declaration of causes and necessity for

5:57 taking up arms. You talk about battles

5:59 were already taken happening. You had

6:01 Lexington and Concord. You had 20,000 um

6:06 patriot militia forces from New England

6:08 surrounding the 4,000 British on that

6:12 island like Boston. And we were in the

6:15 middle of war. They had appointed

6:17 Congress had adopted this army as the

6:19 Continental Army. They had named George

6:22 Washington as a leader and he was on

6:24 their way up. And yet in the declaration

6:27 explaining all this, it says

6:30 we are reduced to the alternative

6:32 choosing between unconditional

6:33 submission to the tyranny of

6:35 parliamentary ministers or resistance by

6:38 force. And then it stresses, we have not

6:41 raised armies with the ambitious design

6:43 of separating from Great Britain, but in

6:46 defense of the freedom that is our

6:49 birthright as subjects of the king. They

6:53 still view themselves as part of the

6:54 empire. They still view themselves as

6:57 British, not Americans. And we’re not

7:01 fighting for separation. What changed?

7:05 Whereas you go all the way up to

7:07 December, you read all these letters

7:09 hardly anyone was arguing for ind among

7:12 the patriots, hardly anyone was arguing

7:15 for independence. Not Adams, not even

7:17 Payne, not Washington. What changed

7:20 during 1776 is mostly in the first half

7:24 of the era, but certainly by the end is

7:26 that virtually all the patriots except

7:29 some outliers like John Dickinson had

7:32 come around that

7:35 independence was needed. That the

7:36 problem wasn’t merely we want lower

7:40 taxes. The problem was authoritarian

7:43 rule. What we want is something new

7:45 under the sun.

7:48 Representative government, republican

7:50 government. We want rule of law. We

7:53 don’t want rule of king. As Payne said

7:56 in common sense

7:58 the will of the king is as much of the

8:01 law of the land in Britain as it is in

8:02 France. In America, the law is king. For

8:05 in an absolute government, the king is

8:07 law. So in free countries, the law ought

8:10 to become king. And that swept the

8:13 country and is captured in the

8:15 Declaration of Independence. This was

8:18 what was something new under the sun and

8:20 how pain could write. The sun never

8:22 shined on a cause of greater worth. The

8:24 cause of America is in great measure the

8:27 cause of all mankind. Well, revolutions

8:30 were nothing new. Countries had

8:32 splintered off empires since the time of

8:35 Rome and Greece and Carthage. And before

8:37 that, what was new was the idea that

8:40 these this breaking off to have the

8:44 people as sovereign. And as a result

8:48 during that year, the states all wrote

8:50 new constitutions, the first written

8:52 constitutions in the history of mankind.

8:56 >> Right., So,, you, bring, up, a, really

8:59 interesting uh point u that I’d really

9:01 love to to dial in even more is that I

9:04 I’ve always found it so anomalous that

9:06 here we are at war. Lexington and

9:09 Concord, Bunker Hill, these major

9:11 battles, the British are burning Nofak

9:14 and Falmouth and and and other other

9:16 towns.

9:17 >> Charles, Town.

9:18 >> Yeah., Yeah., and, and, and, and, yet, we’re, at

9:23 war and yet we’re we don’t declare

9:26 independence, right? I it’s what almost

9:28 a year and a quarter almost a year and a

9:30 half. I mean, how do you explain that

9:32 anomaly?

9:33 >> Well,, they, were, blaming, if, you, look, at

9:35 all the petitions, all the petitions

9:38 being written by the states, there were

9:41 many, many of them. all the letters

9:43 being written and of course the olive

9:46 branch petition, they were always

9:49 blaming Parliament. Parliament was

9:51 viewed as this foreign entity that was

9:54 adopted by um what um a small electorate

9:58 in England about 144,000 people. And

10:02 Jefferson in his great treatise of 1774

10:07 his pamphlet summary view he says we

10:10 don’t want to be um have tyranny of

10:13 144,000 people over us because they were

10:16 they had the polit they were politically

10:18 responsive to a small electorate in

10:20 England and to a unelected king and

10:23 house of lords. What they realized was

10:27 and I think Norfolk was a big part of

10:29 it. If you look at what happened in

10:32 January,

10:34 three things coincided and I think they

10:36 were all critical.

10:39 One was, if you read the newspapers

10:42 that’s when Americans first receive

10:46 the king’s speech from the throne.

10:49 That’s like the state of the union

10:50 message where the king goes before

10:53 parliament on the throne and reads

10:56 official policy. It took place in the

10:58 end of a October 1775, but it didn’t

11:01 reach the colonies uh for the most part

11:03 except for one exception. It didn’t

11:05 reach the col you don’t see it in the

11:06 newspapers until January. And in that

11:09 the king, not Parliament, the king

11:11 declares

11:12 that the colonies are he revokes his

11:16 protection of the colonies. Before this

11:19 all the petitions asked for the king.

11:22 They viewed themselves, the people in

11:24 America, the settlers in America viewed

11:26 themselves as British citizens. We are

11:29 as British as somebody in in London.

11:32 They would write that and they expected

11:35 the king to protect them. Now they read

11:38 he declares them out of his protection.

11:40 He announces that he’s going to send the

11:44 largest British overseas army in the

11:46 history of the world against them

11:49 assemble troops from throughout the

11:51 empire, and worse yet hire German

11:55 mercenaries

11:57 um who were viewed as like ruthless

12:00 barbarians. German mercenaries were

12:03 going to come over by the 10,000 and in

12:06 addition the largest navy in the history

12:08 of of Britain to subdue the colonies

12:13 announce that they read that

12:16 and at the same time they get word of

12:18 the burning the British official policy

12:22 burning of Norfolk. Norfolk then was the

12:24 second most important city in the

12:26 American South and they it was leveled

12:29 and the way it’s reported in the

12:31 newspapers it happens on January 1 but

12:34 the word spreads during January. You

12:37 read it in the newspapers and the way

12:38 it’s described it was completely a

12:40 British atrocity an unexcusable British

12:43 policy that unlike Falmouth was the

12:46 direct result of British policy. And

12:48 then right at the same time in the same

12:52 newspapers out comes Common Sense. And

12:55 Common Sense in the middle of January

12:58 becomes the most widely read pamphlet in

13:00 the history of America. The percentage

13:02 of Americans reading it, no book has

13:04 equal ever since then, except maybe the

13:06 Bible, of course. And it’s read

13:09 everywhere. It’s republished everywhere.

13:12 And within two weeks, everybody’s read

13:15 it or heard it. They read it aloud as

13:18 well. Um 100,000 copies and it makes it

13:23 all make sense. It says the problem is

13:26 not Harlem. The problem is the king.

13:32 Of more worth is one honest man to

13:35 society. Payne writes

13:37 of more worth is one honest man to

13:39 society and in the sight of God than all

13:43 the crowned ruffians that ever lived.

13:46 That applies to any tyrant, any absolute

13:48 government, any authoritarian

13:50 government. No, what we want if we

13:53 design

13:55 and nobody had it, it was something new.

13:57 Now granted, the idea was around from

13:59 Rouso and from um Lock’s second treatis

14:02 on government that you know you form

14:05 representative governments. Payne works

14:08 it out in detail an idea of we can have

14:11 representative government, the people

14:13 shall be sovereign. We will choose our

14:16 own representatives through free, fair

14:19 and frequent elections.

14:22 That’s what he’s saying. He writes right

14:24 in this in January. We have it in our

14:28 power to begin the world over again. Not

14:32 since the day of Noah have people had

14:36 this opportunity. That electricity

14:39 coupled with the reading the king’s

14:42 speech from the throne and the the

14:45 atrocity and action, the atrocity of the

14:48 British at Norfolk that combined to

14:51 literally like turn everybody around for

14:55 independence because the solution now

14:57 became not lower taxes, taxation without

15:01 representation. The solution now became

15:04 representative government, republican

15:06 rule, rule of law.

15:08 And that spirit was the spirit that

15:12 transformed my Washington of course has

15:14 common sense read to the troops

15:17 besieging Boston. It boosted their

15:19 morale. And he writes after seeing the

15:22 response, he says these battles

15:25 thinking of Norfolk, he just received

15:27 also news of Norfolk. These battles

15:29 coupled with the irrefutable

15:32 arguments of the pamphlet common sense

15:35 will lead nobody not supporting

15:37 independence. You can see it in the

15:38 writings of Abigail Adams, her letters

15:40 to her husband. You can see it in John

15:42 Adams own writing. You can see it in um

15:45 you could go on and on. Um uh uh

15:49 um Mercy Warren, Otis Warren, you can

15:53 see it in her writings. It just changes

15:56 the way people think. From South

15:58 Carolina, North Carolina, the word comes

16:01 out. Now

16:03 these words of pain made what was

16:07 happening to them on the battlefield

16:11 and in the actions

16:14 that made it gave it a whole new

16:16 understanding and light. And so

16:19 um the result was a conviction for

16:22 independence.

16:24 >> Great., Yeah., So, that, really, explains

16:28 well uh the s significance of of Thomas

16:31 Payne’s common sense just just how

16:33 important it was to to move that that

16:35 tie towards independence. There’s there

16:37 was another person who was also very

16:39 important. Uh so what was uh John Adams

16:42 role? Uh he certainly believed he had a

16:44 very big role and he did uh in driving

16:47 momentum for independence in the second

16:49 continental congress. You know, I’m

16:51 thinking about his his May 15th preamble

16:53 to this May 10th resolution. Uh, but

16:55 just the the behi behind the scenes

16:58 politicking and and so forth. So, so

17:01 tell us about Adams’s role.

17:03 >> John, Adams,, this, is, the, John, Adams., I

17:05 love the John Adams from 1776.

17:08 Um,

17:10 he becomes pulled over to the cause of

17:13 revolution. He wasn’t for, by his own

17:15 description, he was not necessarily for

17:17 independence. He was for reconciliation

17:19 up through the end of 1775.

17:22 But he becomes convinced that only

17:24 independence and if you see his private

17:27 letters which I’ve tried to follow very

17:29 closely and summarize in the book um he

17:33 says what is independence? Well

17:35 independence for him was a new state

17:38 constitution in every one of the

17:40 colonies. That is the colonies had been

17:44 formed with charters from the king and

17:47 those charters the king was sovereign

17:50 and so you had a charter for Virginia or

17:52 you had a charter for Pennsylvania

17:54 charter for Massachusetts. Some set up

17:56 proprietorship colonies but really the

17:59 proprietor like the Penn family were

18:01 based in England and under the king.

18:02 Some were directly royal colonies. In

18:05 all cases, the king was sovereign. And

18:07 he thought what independence was in his

18:10 mind was breaking with the king. And he

18:14 viewed each state, each colony as a

18:17 separate entity. And so he believed that

18:20 each needed a new a new republican

18:23 representative

18:26 constitution that created a republic.

18:28 And so he um pushed that through. And he

18:32 said, he repeatedly said, "What is

18:34 independence?" Well, he was right.

18:36 Independence was a new constitution, a

18:38 Republican constitution in every state.

18:41 Um, recognition by some other states

18:43 like France and, um, uh, getting those

18:48 things done. Um, and, uh, ultimately

18:52 um,

18:54 driving the British out. So he his first

18:58 cause becomes these um new

19:01 constitutions. So some of them

19:03 anticipating all his writing because

19:05 he’s writing and others are writing and

19:06 having the same thinking. Um some states

19:09 have rushed ahead like South Carolina

19:11 and and and New Hampshire earlier in

19:14 1775. Um but Payne opposed by John

19:18 Dickinson who still wants reconciliation

19:20 and know this will be a big break. He

19:23 doesn’t need unonymity. you need

19:25 unonymity for a for a declaration of

19:28 independence, but you only need a

19:29 majority vote uh for a resolution on

19:32 independent governments. and he gets he

19:34 writes it he gets it passed and he

19:36 writes a fiery preamble um calling on

19:40 every state to adopt a new constitution

19:44 to use quoting directly from it best

19:47 conducive to the happiness and safety of

19:50 their constituents in particular and

19:53 America in general and then he writes a

19:56 his most important pamphlet ever

19:58 thoughts on government it’s a great

19:59 pamphlet um that comes out in May um

20:04 where he tries to describe the sort of

20:07 government that everybody should adop

20:08 that should be adopted and it becomes a

20:10 model for North Carolina, New Jersey

20:14 Maryland, Delaware directly. Um, and in

20:18 it he asks, "When," this is what he

20:21 writes, he puts an exclamation point

20:23 after that, "when had a people a full

20:26 power and fair opportunity to form and

20:28 establish the wisest and happiest

20:31 government that human wisdom can

20:34 contrive, adding that republican

20:36 governments

20:39 are such a government." that republics

20:41 are governments to his words of law not

20:45 of men. Now this echoes common sense

20:49 though the governmenty designs are

20:51 different in common sense it’s proposing

20:54 government’s basically a onehouse

20:56 legislature

20:57 um uh Adams has two house balanced

21:01 government still a very weak executive

21:04 power is in the elected representatives

21:06 and both of them call for annual

21:08 elections that are free fair and and

21:11 frequent but the point is um

21:16 they’re both use these terms. We the end

21:19 of government, they write the end of

21:21 government is security

21:25 liberty,

21:27 and the goal is great, as Payne puts it

21:32 the greatest happiness at the least

21:33 expense. Um, that now compare that with

21:37 everything before. Could you imagine

21:40 George III or any English monarch or any

21:43 monarch in Europe saying his purpose was

21:46 to secure the liberty and happiness of

21:50 the people? No, he got Henry the You’ve

21:52 got uh Louis the 14th declaring the

21:55 state is me. Christian IVth in Denmark

21:59 the other great absolute monarch of that

22:01 uh decade was saying similar things. The

22:04 purpose of the state is to help is to

22:07 back me. crime solver. Um, no, no

22:11 you’re not. It’s saying, and this is

22:14 captured in all the state constitutions

22:16 but my favorite probably in this respect

22:19 is the North Carolina constitution of

22:21 1776, which was directly inspired by

22:24 Adam’s thoughts on government. And the

22:27 opening line of that constitution is all

22:31 political power is vested in and derived

22:34 from the people only. Now in a world

22:40 where kings are sovereign and you speak

22:43 of divine rights to say that all

22:46 political power is vested and derived

22:48 from the people only that indeed is

22:51 revolutionary something new under the

22:53 sun and Adams is at the heart of that

22:56 argument.

23:01 >> Right., Right., and, and, and, and, I, was

23:03 going to ask you which is a great segue

23:04 to say you know there’s this

23:06 relationship between the constitution

23:09 making on the state level and then you

23:11 know we had Virginia and other states um

23:13 they’re they’re declaring their rights

23:15 they’re they’re shaping new

23:16 constitutions republican constitutions

23:18 as you say so there’s that direct

23:20 relationship with declaring independence

23:23 and what’s happening in in the

23:25 declaration maybe you can look into that

23:27 relationship a just a little bit more

23:29 closely

23:30 >> absolutely, the, the, declaration, falls

23:33 directly follows directly from that. Um

23:36 now remember Adams thought what was

23:38 important were new state constitutions

23:40 and that if you have a state

23:41 constitution declaring the people

23:43 sovereign and the king not sovereign u

23:45 and including grievances against the

23:47 king. You look through the state

23:48 constitutions they take a very similar

23:51 format. They they have a bill of rights

23:53 declaring the rights of the people. They

23:55 have the grievances against the king.

23:57 the order of the two move around and

23:59 then they have the structure typically a

24:02 very representative structure broad

24:05 voting rights for people maybe a two

24:07 house legislature maybe one if two

24:10 higher property rights for the other um

24:13 various requirements to discourage

24:15 gerrymandering and to encourage

24:18 legislation that the public knows about

24:21 and can respond to very similar But

24:27 at the same time

24:29 and it doesn’t come from Adams, the

24:31 thinking comes

24:34 from these various states as they’re

24:36 drafting their constitutions.

24:38 >> And, Virginia, is, the, critical, example,

24:40 but it’s true from all of them.

24:43 They say, "Well, yes, we’re declaring

24:47 our independence through our state

24:48 constitution, but we need to

24:50 collectively declare our independence

24:52 too." So the Virginia legislature which

24:54 is working on its new constitution

24:57 sends a resolution up and the resolution

25:01 this was the idea of the governor. It

25:03 was actually others didn’t push it.

25:06 Patrick Henry did not push this but the

25:08 governor gets through that we think that

25:12 Congress should also declare the

25:15 independence of the whole as well as

25:17 we’re declaring independence of each

25:18 state. So they send up their resolution.

25:21 is carried out by Richard Henry Lee. Um

25:23 it arrives in June and um says that

25:28 these colonies are and of rights should

25:30 be free and independent states and ask

25:32 Congress to adopt it. Well, as soon as

25:34 they get it, they realize we need an

25:36 explanation justifying it. Just like all

25:38 the state constitutions are drafting a

25:41 list of grievances against the king um

25:44 that justify they’re declaring

25:46 independence under this notion of

25:49 popular sovereignty and right to rebel

25:52 that then appears in the Declaration of

25:54 Independence. And so they assign the

25:56 task to a committee. Thomas Jefferson is

25:59 chair of it. Now Jefferson’s curious

26:02 because he had wanted he thought the

26:05 main business was happening in the

26:06 states. So he had wanted to leave

26:09 Congress, [clears throat]

26:10 when Virginia has

26:13 starts writing its constitution

26:16 and but so did everybody else and he was

26:18 a junior member of the Virginia

26:20 delegation and off goes Wyth and the

26:22 other ones down to down to um uh

26:26 Williamsburg to write the um Virginia

26:28 Constitution. So Jefferson is sitting up

26:31 there in Philadelphia working mostly on

26:35 drafts that he’s sending down to

26:39 Virginia because he’s getting word that

26:41 that they’re um that they don’t have a

26:44 consensus yet. Actually, he was fed

26:47 wrong information. George Mason had

26:49 taken over the whole operation and was

26:51 just writing it himself. But Jefferson

26:54 wrote of the new constitution in a

26:56 letter. In truth, it that is the

26:59 Virginia constitution.

27:02 In truth, it is the whole object of the

27:04 par present controversy. For if a bad

27:07 government be instituted for us in the

27:09 future would have been as well to have

27:11 accepted the first bad one offered to us

27:14 from beyond the water, that means in

27:16 Britain, without the risk and expense of

27:18 contest. He thought that was the

27:20 business. But because he’s still back

27:23 there, he gets assigned as chair of the

27:27 committee. He remember he was it was

27:29 known as a great writer thanks to his um

27:32 um summary view pamphlet from a couple

27:34 years before. And he’s assigned as along

27:38 with the other two great writers there

27:40 John Adams and Franklin, a couple others

27:42 to balance geographically, but they were

27:44 the only three that really worked on the

27:45 declaration itself. And um so he’s

27:48 assigned the task to write it.

27:50 Meanwhile, he’s mostly sending drafts

27:52 back to Virginia and um

27:57 and he’s getting by the end drafts from

28:00 George Mason of what they’re doing. Um

28:04 so he’s takes these various pieces

28:09 and in many ways the Declaration of

28:11 Independence reads quite a bit like the

28:15 Virginia Constitution. He takes what

28:18 Mason has written. He takes what um he

28:21 has written um one on the logic of the

28:25 whole thing, the preamble part, the

28:27 first part. Next on the grievances are

28:30 basically his list of grievances um that

28:33 he’s written plus a few thrown in from

28:36 other states um that didn’t particularly

28:39 affect Virginia. And then the end is

28:41 really Richard Henry Lee’s resolution

28:43 from Virginia tagged on the end. That’s

28:46 the Declaration of Independence. Adams

28:48 who of course always always looked down

28:52 on everybody else and viewed himself

28:54 with great import self-importance. Um he

28:58 deserves a lot, but he also was that

29:00 way. Um he sneered that the Declaration

29:02 of Independence was the peacework of an

29:05 afternoon. And uh Jefferson rightly

29:08 responded and said, "Well, they didn’t

29:10 ask me to write anything new. I was

29:13 supposed to summarize views that were

29:14 already out there." But in truth, it did

29:18 only take a couple days, but in truth

29:20 it was a work of absolute brilliance

29:23 because he weaves these parts together.

29:25 Well, if it’s piece work, it’s like a

29:27 fine Virginia quilt. He takes these

29:30 pieces, these ideas that are already

29:32 floating around. Um, my favorite example

29:35 of that is people often give credit um

29:39 where credit is not due to Jefferson for

29:42 changing John Lock’s life, liberty, and

29:45 property to life, liberty, and pursuit

29:46 of happiness. But that wasn’t him. That

29:49 was pain. Payne talks the purpose of

29:52 government is the greatest sum of

29:54 individual happiness with the least

29:56 national expense. It’s Adams. Adams in

30:00 thoughts on government. He says um the

30:03 purpose is to create and establish the

30:05 wisest ha wisest and happiest

30:08 government. Then human wisdom can

30:10 contrive. Everyone was talking what was

30:13 the purpose of go? They didn’t mean

30:14 pleasure. They didn’t mean pleasure. The

30:17 purpose of government isn’t pleasure. Um

30:20 but the purpose of government was well

30:23 what are we for? Why do we have a

30:25 government? It’s not to serve a king.

30:28 What it is is to

30:31 these issues that pain

30:34 Adams and all the others are talking

30:36 about

30:37 security, liberty, individual liberty

30:41 and happiness.

30:44 Um that becomes in Jefferson’s words

30:48 life, liberty and the pursuit of

30:49 happiness. And you could not say it

30:52 better indeed ever after. I know you’re

30:57 interested in the future impact of the

30:59 Declaration of Independence. Various

31:01 things are important, but nothing was

31:03 more important than that phrasing

31:05 because

31:08 I could make an essay that what becomes

31:11 the American dream is captured in that

31:15 phrase that the inevitable the

31:18 inalienable right of people for life

31:22 liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

31:24 That is in a nutshell what the American

31:28 dream becomes. And that there’s nothing

31:31 self-evident about that. No country

31:34 would have argued that that was its

31:36 purpose before. Nobody would have said

31:39 this is self-evident because it wasn’t a

31:42 truth before. But it became the basis of

31:47 the American Republic, the American

31:49 experiment in popular government.

31:53 >> Beautifully, put., I, maybe, that’s, your

31:54 next book. So uh so uh very good. Um my

31:59 my final question is um how we started.

32:02 So what was the relationship between in

32:05 a in a nutshell revolutionary war

32:07 battlefield deeds and the inspiring

32:10 words and principles of this declaration

32:13 of independence.

32:15 I think it’s a a back a give and take

32:17 and that’s what I try to capture in the

32:19 book um throughout the year and I think

32:24 you could stretch this out but my

32:27 expertise from my late research is the

32:29 year 1776

32:31 and what I see is words inspiring deeds

32:35 actions inspiring ideals you can see

32:38 that in so many ways but you can’t but

32:42 among them is the letters by the

32:46 soldiers in the field.

32:48 >> The, soldiers, in, the, field, begin, writing

32:51 actually very I will concede late in

32:54 1775 but certainly accelerating in 1776.

32:59 You see these letters from the the

33:03 Massachusetts militia that’s on the

33:05 field surrounding Boston during the

33:07 siege of Boston. the letters they write

33:09 to John Hancock and John Adams and

33:13 Samuel Adams, their representatives in

33:15 Philadelphia.

33:17 Um, letters from privates because in

33:20 Massachusetts everybody thinks they’re

33:22 equal because they’re all Puritans and

33:24 they had this sense of religious

33:26 equality, but also from generals. It

33:28 doesn’t matter too. They’re begging

33:31 give us something more to fight for.

33:33 Lower taxes is not it. give us something

33:38 more to fight for. Declare independence

33:41 and tell us why. And so then

33:46 Washington has common sense read to the

33:49 troops in the siege of Boston. It

33:52 demonstrally gives them more power. But

33:55 still he needed those cannons brought

33:57 over the mountains by by Knox and and

34:01 and put in Dorchester shite Dorchester

34:04 Heights about where the Kennedy Library

34:06 is now to force the British out of

34:09 Boston. And that

34:12 fact, that fact on the ground that a

34:17 ragtag American army of militia led by a

34:21 little experienced General Washington

34:24 could drive the British army out of

34:27 Boston was empowering. It made

34:30 Washington a hero immediately. He

34:33 receives commendations from around the

34:37 from every place in Massachusetts but

34:39 way beyond around the colonies. And that

34:43 sense

34:45 coupled with having read Tom Payne

34:48 Thomas Payne, who it never call him Tom

34:50 it’s always Thomas. Thomas Payne who

34:53 writes that fighting for the cause of

34:56 independence,

34:57 this glorious cause

35:01 no army in the world can defeat us. And

35:03 then they see what actually happens in

35:06 Boston. And that just energizes the

35:09 revolution. And then as it unfolds, the

35:13 the atrocities

35:15 the British

35:18 cause, particularly after the fall of

35:21 Fort Washington, where Washington makes

35:23 the mistake of leaving 2,000 men in what

35:26 he thought was an impregnable fort in

35:28 what’s now Washington Heights, right at

35:30 the end of the George Washington Bridge

35:32 in Manhattan, lets the rested fall, but

35:34 he thought he could get him across the

35:35 river as he did in um after the Battle

35:38 of Brooklyn Heights. He didn’t. Um, and

35:40 those troops are put on these prison

35:42 holes, these these decommissioned ships

35:45 in the East River where they literally

35:48 all die. It’s just absolute

35:50 unjustifiable atrocity. if the British

35:53 would do that to Americans and then the

35:58 atrocities mostly blamed on the Hessins

36:01 as the British army pushes across New

36:05 Jersey in the end at the end of 177

36:08 basically in November October, November

36:11 and December of 1776. again 1776. And

36:15 the way they’re written up in the

36:16 newspapers of rape, of pillage, of

36:19 murder, um, partly by the British

36:23 allowed by the British overseers, but

36:25 mostly attributed to the Germans if the

36:28 king would send over people to do that

36:30 these atrocities in the battlefield. So

36:32 it’s not the victories. The only victory

36:34 really was was the evacuation of Boston.

36:39 the the atrocities that followed the

36:41 defeats in New York area in New Jersey

36:44 and then finally at the very last day of

36:46 the war of the year the battle of

36:49 Trenton where Washington makes this

36:52 strategic

36:54 recrossing of the Delaware and manages

36:57 you know it’s more of a PR victory it’s

37:00 not that significance it’s a small

37:02 British small Hessen um outpost that’s

37:06 overwhelmed by everything that’s left of

37:09 Washington’s army that outnumbered him

37:11 four to one. Um the uh but the sheer

37:15 fact that you could regain a foothold in

37:18 New Jersey after the British had

37:21 basically taken the state the moral

37:24 victory those actions

37:27 in the field

37:30 working with the ideas. So the ideas

37:34 only the ideas only the call for

37:36 independence only the declaration of

37:39 independence which led of course to the

37:42 immediate uprising in New York where

37:44 they pull down the king statue. The

37:46 power of those words

37:50 drive the fight and then the fight helps

37:54 underscore and reinforce the words so

37:56 that you end with Tom Thomas Payne again

38:00 in the first crisis brought out on the

38:02 eve of the battle of Trenton where he

38:04 says these are the times that try men’s

38:07 souls. Those that persevere now, you

38:10 know, tyranny like hell is hard to

38:13 conquer, but those that persevere now

38:15 will re the accolades of all future

38:17 generations.

38:20 Those words are amazing, but they only

38:22 work if Tom Thomas Payne had brought out

38:25 common sense a year earlier, it would

38:27 have had no meaning. It took what was

38:29 happening in the field going back and

38:32 forth with the ideas that gave those

38:35 actions meaning. That was why 1776

38:39 matters.

38:41 >> Edward, Larson,, I, want, to, thank, you, very

38:43 much for joining us to discuss your

38:46 latest book, Declaring Independence: Why

38:50 1776 Matters. And thank you all for

38:53 joining this episode of Scholar Talks

38:55 and our America 250 series. Please check

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