The Bible and the American Founding with Daniel Dreisbach | BRI Scholar Talks

0:06 For this episode of Scholar Talks, we’re going to discuss

0:08 how the Bible helped shaped the American founding.

0:13 Now our guest, Daniel Dreisbach, is a professor of law,

0:15 justice and criminology at American University.

0:19 He’s the author and editor of several books on the American

0:22 founding and religion, including a must Read Thomas Jefferson

0:27 and the Wall of Separation Between Church and State,

0:31 and Today’s Topic Reading the Bible with the Founding Fathers.

0:35 I am Tony Williams, senior fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute,

0:38 and I would like to welcome you to another episode of

0:41 Scholar Talks in the America 250 series.

0:45 Daniel, and thank you very much for joining me.

0:47 Well, thank you so much for having me.

0:49 It’s a delight to join you today.

0:51 Yeah, I had a very intrigued.

0:53 I can’t wait to jump into the conversation.

0:56 We we think about a lot of different influences on the founders,

0:59 and you’ve really shown quite definitively that the Bible

1:03 and Protestant Christianity did, in fact, have a profound influence.

1:07 So, and that leads me to my first question.

1:10 Why don’t we go ahead and jump in?

1:11 So to the usual argument that the American founding

1:14 had a lot of different influences, such as Locke and the enlightenment,

1:18 Greece and Rome, modern liberalism, the English tradition,

1:22 you add the Bible and Protestant Christianity.

1:25 So my question is why is this important?

1:29 So we all know that

1:31 the American founders were extraordinarily well read,

1:34 and they drew on diverse intellectual traditions

1:37 to inform their own political thought and their political experiments.

1:42 You mentioned some very important sources of influence.

1:46 We think of the English common law and constitutionalism,

1:50 enlightenment, liberalism and manifold forms.

1:53 We could also add to that classical and civic republicanism.

1:57 And if we were to go down to, to a good,

2:00 research, library at a local university, we’re literally going

2:04 to find shelves of books written on the influence of, of enlightenment

2:09 thought on the American founding, John Locke, Baron de Montesquieu and the like.

2:14 But I daresay we’re not going to find many books on the influence of the Bible

2:18 and and Christianity on the American founding.

2:22 And I think it’s a vital part of understanding the influences

2:27 that informed, not only their worldview in a general sense,

2:31 but their political projects, their political enterprises.

2:35 And so this is really what inspired me to take up this topic,

2:39 because I don’t think we can adequately understand

2:43 the broad range of ideas that informed, the political thought of

2:48 of the founding generation without including

2:51 the Bible and the Christian tradition in into that mix.

2:56 Many of the of the founding generation, for example,

2:59 look to the Bible to inform their views on things like human nature,

3:04 civic responsibility, the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

3:09 What constitutes a legitimate government?

3:12 These are the kinds of topics that are

3:14 that are so important in creating a new political society.

3:18 And so, these are questions that the founders have

3:21 that they’re looking to the Bible to help them understand

3:25 how to, to move forward with, with, their experiment.

3:29 And let me just give you one example here.

3:32 I think a starting point.

3:33 In fact, a number of the founders say this is the starting point

3:37 of any political theory, and that is to understand human nature.

3:41 And so I think we find example after example of American founders saying

3:47 our understanding of the of human nature comes from the Bible.

3:52 They’re reading the story of the fall in the Garden of Eden,

3:56 and they’re looking to Genesis chapter three and what they conclude is

4:01 that humankind is is fallen, is sinful.

4:05 And this become becomes a very central part of, of their political project.

4:11 And so they build a political system

4:15 that is designed to check and restrain,

4:19 the acts of selfish, sinful people.

4:23 And we end up with a constitution that is obsessed with things like

4:27 checks and balances and separation of powers.

4:30 And I think this arises from a biblical understanding of who

4:35 mankind is.

4:38 Farsighted.

4:39 Really good.

4:40 And as a follow up, so

4:43 thinking you write a little bit about, actually a topic we’ve,

4:46 attended a conference together on, Protestant resistance theory.

4:50 Tell me a little bit about that, because as I was reading the book,

4:52 I was really struck by I was like, boy, this is natural rights.

4:56 And, the purpose of government and the right of revolution.

5:00 Right of resistance.

5:01 I was like, wow, that’s like the declaration, right?

5:04 And we usually talk about Locke in the declaration, but I

5:07 you show the origins can be a little earlier than that.

5:11 That’s right.

5:11 So, you know, let’s let’s look at it this way.

5:14 And again, I think a good starting point here is a biblical text.

5:17 And I would I would turn to Romans chapter 13,

5:21 the first seven verses, which speaks of, of that obligation of citizens

5:27 to be in submission to those in authority over them.

5:30 Now, for a pious American people, this idea that you must be

5:35 in submission to your rulers is a is a challenging text.

5:39 If you’re contemplating rebellion

5:41 or resistance to to George the third and Parliament.

5:45 And so and by the way, this has been a challenging text for, for

5:51 people throughout history.

5:53 Most immediately in our past history, we might look to the English Civil wars

5:59 and, and, and the rebellion against, the Charles the First.

6:03 For example, pious, people in England

6:06 had to grapple with this kind of text.

6:09 Now, those who want to affirm the power of the

6:14 of a Charles the First in the mid 17th century,

6:17 or the power of George the Third in the mid to late 18th century,

6:22 they’re going to emphasize

6:24 this idea that you must be in submission to those in authority over you.

6:28 But what Christians have often done in history is they brought a very nuanced

6:33 reading of Romans 13 that goes something like this.

6:37 Yes, civil government

6:40 and civil magistrates, or are ordained by God,

6:44 but government and magistrates

6:48 are ordained to serve the public good.

6:52 Now, that last part is key to the argument, because the way

6:56 patriotic Americans read Romans 13 is, yes, government is ordained of God.

7:03 Yes, we are to be in submission to government,

7:06 but so long as it serves

7:09 the public good, if a ruler becomes a tyrant,

7:13 if a if a if a ruler begins to serve his own interests

7:17 and not the interests of the people, then that ruler in a sense

7:21 disposes himself and is no longer entitled

7:26 to that obligation of obedience.

7:29 Now, let me just pointed to you to some language in the Declaration

7:33 of Independence. Right, George?

7:34 The third is somewhat described as a tyrant, is he

7:37 not that very language of of a tyrant is, is is used.

7:42 But there’s a little line in the Declaration of Independence.

7:45 I want to draw your attention to notice that that the declaration says George

7:51 the Third has abdicated his office.

7:55 We often skip over that line, but I think it’s key.

7:58 And that’s a point being made here, is that George the Third ceases

8:03 to serve the public good.

8:04 In that sense, he’s deposed or abdicated the office and is therefore

8:09 no longer in titled to that obedience required by Romans chapter 13.

8:15 In fact, we often hear patriots say it not only is disobedience

8:20 to a tyrant allowed, but it’s even a duty

8:24 to resist a tyrant.

8:27 It’s the Christian duty to resist a tyrant.

8:30 And so it’s a very interesting, nuanced reading of Scripture

8:34 we may disagree about, the,

8:37 the, the, veracity of this,

8:40 of this interpretation, but this is, this is an interpretation of scripture

8:44 that patriotic Americans are making here at this, at this moment of,

8:49 of, of rebellion and resistance against, George the third and Parliament.

8:56 Right.

8:56 And I was going to ask this later.

8:58 Let me, let me ask you now.

8:59 So, so the Bible, you’re saying it was a source of unity,

9:02 but it could also be interpreted differently by Tories and by patriots. So

9:07 and that leads to a division over whether this is legitimate authority or not.

9:12 Yeah.

9:12 I think there’s a consensus that the Bible is, is an authoritative text.

9:17 It is a text to be venerated.

9:19 But as I think you rightly state

9:23 that doesn’t mean that Americans in the late 18th century,

9:28 nor Christians throughout history, have always shared a common understanding

9:33 or interpretation of specific biblical text.

9:37 And this is a good example of of a text, Romans 13, that

9:42 that loyalist tended to interpret somewhat

9:45 differently from patriotic Americans.

9:49 And we’re going to again not only find at this time,

9:51 but at other times in history, where there have been disagreements about,

9:56 what does the Bible have to say about slavery, for example,

10:00 or what does the Bible have to say about to use the language

10:04 of a later age, separation of church and state?

10:06 Is this required by Scripture or not?

10:09 And so, yes, they share, a veneration of Scripture,

10:13 but there are going to be these instances where there are

10:17 pretty significant disagreements as to,

10:21 the application and, and interpretation of the Bible

10:25 to, to the moment, that, that, Americans find themselves in.

10:31 Right.

10:31 And this splits, you know, clerics and churches, if, if I’m not mistaken.

10:37 That’s right. Right.

10:38 And, again, it’s not only,

10:41 these are not only disagreements

10:43 among individual citizens, but it’s going to to begin to divide,

10:47 larger religious communities, religious societies,

10:50 what we might even call religious denominations and churches.

10:53 All right.

10:54 Right. Okay, good.

10:55 So, how does the Bible important to,

10:59 you mentioned in the book education,

11:02 Private Lives and really shaped the common culture

11:06 in an overwhelmingly not only Protestant, but also highly literate,

11:11 especially in New England, colonial population.

11:15 That’s right.

11:16 So, first of all, Americans in the late

11:19 18th century are, let me put it this way.

11:22 Americans of European descent are overwhelmingly Protestant.

11:27 Probably somewhere in the neighborhood of of 98% or more of all Americans

11:32 would have identified in some sense with Protestantism.

11:37 And, and and the Bible looms large in Protestant culture.

11:42 If you remove, the church and its priest as mediators between God and man,

11:49 then the Bible sort of becomes very important

11:52 in understanding, what God is, is speaking to us.

11:56 And so going all the way

11:57 back to the earliest days of the Protestant Reformation in Europe,

12:02 the Bible, it

12:04 becomes a very important part of that culture.

12:08 And alongside with the Bible, translating the Bible

12:12 into the vernacular tongue becomes very important.

12:15 So again, you’re removing the role of the church

12:19 and its priest as a as a reader and interpreter of the Bible,

12:22 and you’re putting it in the hands of the common person.

12:27 And alongside that, literacy education becomes vitally important.

12:32 It’s important that the individual believer be able

12:35 to read the Bible in his or her own language.

12:40 And so literacy education becomes an important

12:43 part of of Protestant culture.

12:46 Now, let’s just put this a little bit more precisely.

12:49 In late 18th century America again,

12:53 the Bible is is largely accepted as,

12:57 as the most authoritative venerated text.

13:00 It’s also the most accessible text.

13:03 If, if a, a farmer

13:06 out there on the frontier had one Bible, that one, one book,

13:11 excuse me, that one book almost certainly would have been the Bible.

13:14 Right.

13:15 And and interestingly, the King James Bible is written in a,

13:20 in a kind of language, a rather simple language that makes it.

13:25 And I do the ideal tool for literacy education.

13:29 And I think we can say fairly accurately, that the vast majority of Americans

13:34 who were, by the way, literate at the end of the 18th century were seeing

13:39 the highest rates of literacy that perhaps we’ve ever seen in human history.

13:44 The chances are that Americans are learning

13:48 to read with a copy of the Bible in front of them, right?

13:51 They’re learning to read from the language of the Bible.

13:55 So not only are they getting literacy education, but they are there

13:59 in incorporating into their education the content of the Bible.

14:05 It’s it’s literary allusions.

14:07 It’s metaphors, figures of speech, it’s parables, it’s stories.

14:12 It’s it’s moral codes and the like.

14:15 And so I think this is going to have an enormous influence on the broader culture.

14:21 And I think, whatever we might say

14:24 about the influence, for example, of enlightenment thought,

14:29 in a more immediate sense, Americans are developing

14:32 their private morality from biblical texts,

14:37 and we’re going to begin to see the Bible incorporated

14:41 into the curriculum of, of education, from,

14:44 from the primary education right up through the college level.

14:48 And let’s remind ourselves.

14:50 But still, in the 18th century, most colleges

14:54 in America were essentially seminaries

14:57 to train young men for the ministry to serve in the pulpit.

15:01 And so the Bible is just a fundamental part, of education.

15:06 And that’s going to extend its influence

15:09 in very significant ways across the culture.

15:13 Okay.

15:14 So, so thinking, moving into the American Revolution and the American founding.

15:18 So, the founders had differing

15:22 religious views, and broadly Protestant, as you said.

15:26 But but they, and, you know, some were a little more unorthodox

15:30 than others, but they all seem to agree on this basic

15:34 founding syllogism, that the religion was the basis of morality

15:40 and morality, and virtue was the basis was necessary for self-government.

15:45 So can you can you tease that out a little bit?

15:48 For sure, sure.

15:49 I think this this is an idea that goes to the heart

15:52 of, of their Republican theory, okay?

15:55 Their Republican theory of government.

15:58 Again, the founding generation would have been largely in agreement

16:02 and acknowledging, as you say, that there’s disagreements

16:05 in their sort of, ecclesiastical affiliations and the like,

16:09 but they’re largely agreed that virtue and morality is absolutely essential

16:14 to their rather bold experiment in in republican self-government,

16:20 authoritarian rulers, tyrants can maintain social order and discipline

16:25 by use of the whipping, the rod, the external controls of the whip,

16:30 and the rod, but clearly the whipping the rod is unacceptable

16:34 for a free, independent, self-governing people.

16:38 And so a challenging question confronted by the founding generation is

16:43 in a system of self-government.

16:46 What replaces the external control of the whip and the rod?

16:51 And it’s on this point that the American founders are going to learn, are going to,

16:57 incline themselves to nurture

17:00 internal monitors, internal controls

17:05 that replace the external control of the whip and the rod.

17:09 This internal monitor is going to be what we might think of as civic virtue.

17:15 So civic virtue becomes vital

17:18 to their project in republican self-government.

17:22 Now the next question becomes, will what nurtures that civic virtue?

17:26 And it’s on this point that many Americans, I’m not going to say

17:30 all Americans, but many Americans are going to look to the Bible

17:34 as a vital tool in training

17:38 the American people to develop that internal moral compass

17:43 that replaces the external control of of the whip and the rod.

17:48 And so this is, I think, how we get to this, this syllogism,

17:52 as you put it, this idea that virtue and morality are necessary for republican

17:58 self-government and religion is necessary for nurturing virtue.

18:03 Therefore, we might conclude in the minds of the founders

18:07 that religion is necessary for republican self-government to to work.

18:12 Now just to sort of to put a capstone on this.

18:17 John Adams is one of several American founders

18:20 who says this and this, this, this quote always captures my attention,

18:26 John Adams said, and he’s by no means alone in saying this.

18:30 John Dickinson says almost exactly the same thing.

18:33 Other founders say very similar things, but John Adams says

18:36 the Bible is the most Republican book in the world, right?

18:41 It’s a strange thing from a 21st century mind to hear said, right,

18:47 in what sense is the Bible the most Republican book?

18:51 Well, he’s really speaking to this syllogism.

18:55 He’s saying that is virtue is essential to Republican self-government,

19:00 and the Bible is essential to nurturing those civic virtues in that sense,

19:06 because he believes the Bible is the best handbook

19:09 ever made for teaching virtue.

19:13 It is the most Republican book that you can think of.

19:16 And again, it’s a very strange statement

19:19 to be made from our very modern perspective.

19:22 But I think if you understand that mindset

19:26 of the American founding and the syllogism, it makes perfect sense.

19:31 Right? Right.

19:32 Excellent.

19:32 So, so how does the Bible then shape

19:36 the political discourse of the American Revolution and founding?

19:40 Yeah, that’s a really good question.

19:43 Let me just sort of take one step back.

19:45 If I might.

19:46 And, and let’s talk about the importance of the Bible to that discourse.

19:51 The late

19:52 political scientist at the University of Houston, Donald Lutz,

19:56 published an article in, the flagship publication for American

20:01 political scientist, back in the 1980s,

20:04 in which he in which he found this is the finding of his study

20:09 that the Bible was by far the most cited work

20:14 in the political literature of the American founding.

20:18 His study found that about one third,

20:22 one third of all citations

20:24 in the political literature of the American founding was to the Bible.

20:28 In fact, the Book of Deuteronomy was the most cited book.

20:32 Deuteronomy is cited much more frequently, for example, than than all of John

20:37 Locke’s works put together is cited more frequently than than all the works

20:41 of Montesquieu and Locke.

20:43 Montesquieu are important to the founders,

20:45 but the Book of Deuteronomy alone is more frequently cited.

20:50 So starting from the proposition that the Bible is is being referenced

20:56 is being cited frequently in this political discourse.

21:01 I think we have to go beyond let’s study.

21:04 In this sense, it’s interesting to know that the Bible is frequently cited,

21:09 but that may not tell us a whole lot about the influence of the Bible.

21:13 I think the most important point that I try to make in the book is this

21:18 we got to move beyond simply counting quotations and try to understand

21:23 the reasons or the purposes

21:27 for which the Bible is being used.

21:30 And the bottom line is this the American Founders

21:33 are using the Bible for a variety of reasons.

21:38 They are not simply using the Bible

21:41 for theological or or we might even say prophetic purposes.

21:46 They’re using it for a whole variety of reasons, from the strictly literary

21:50 and the rhetorical uses of the Bible,

21:53 as well as for theological purposes.

21:57 And so when you see, a reference to the Bible, I think you need to dig

22:02 a little bit deeper and say, why is the Bible being used here?

22:06 And by the way, this is advice

22:07 not only in reading the literature of the American founding.

22:10 I think this is good advice for when you hear a politician in 21st

22:14 century America quote the Bible, right?

22:16 You want to understand why they’re using the Bible.

22:19 And let me just suggest a couple of the reasons, several reasons.

22:23 And again, there are many reasons.

22:25 But let’s just mention a couple of them, some obvious, perhaps some not so obvious

22:30 they’re using it for.

22:31 It’s purely it’s as a literary resource.

22:35 The King James translation of the Bible

22:37 in particular is a rich storehouse of of metaphors,

22:42 figures of speech, aphorisms and the like.

22:46 I think about all those metaphors that we use in our daily lives.

22:51 Think of phrases like the forbidden fruit or the writing on the wall,

22:56 or the lion’s den, or walk the extra mile.

22:59 These are all phrases, metaphors that have a biblical origin,

23:04 and the founders are using the Bible in this sense,

23:09 as well as as as other senses.

23:13 I think they’re also looking to the Bible for rhetorical purposes.

23:18 Now, if you know the King James Bible, which is the chance translation

23:22 of the Bible, that would have been most familiar to the American founding,

23:27 you know that there’s a very distinct cadence,

23:31 to the language of the King James Bible.

23:33 There is a,

23:36 it’s, of course, an Elizabethan, Jacobean

23:39 sort of English language, but it has very distinct cadences.

23:43 And so I think what you’re going to find is that

23:46 skillful,

23:49 speakers and writers in the American founding,

23:51 think of a Benjamin Franklin or, Thomas Paine.

23:55 They’re constantly using the Bible.

23:58 But here’s where it gets really interesting.

24:00 They’re using Bible like language.

24:03 And I think what they’re using here is the cadence,

24:07 the rhythm, that Jacobean type language

24:11 to add a kind of weight or gravitas

24:15 to their arguments, to their rhetoric today.

24:20 By the way, no one in American

24:22 history has been more skillful at this than Abraham Lincoln.

24:26 Right? To jump ahead a generation or two.

24:29 And let me just take you to one example.

24:32 And we could spend a whole, a whole, session on this alone.

24:36 But let’s go to the Gettysburg Address. Right.

24:38 How does he begin?

24:39 Fourscore in seven years ago.

24:41 That’s an odd way of saying 87.

24:44 Why does he say that?

24:46 I think he’s using a mode of expression that claims come straight

24:51 out of the King James Bible, probably Psalm 9010.

24:56 Man has three score in ten years on this earth.

25:00 He says in the in Psalm, I think what Lincoln is doing here, he’s

25:04 using a Bible like he’s not quoting the Bible, but

25:08 he’s using Bible like mode of expression to put his audience

25:13 from the very first word into a biblical frame of mind.

25:18 He says, I got something very serious to say, but he doesn’t stop there.

25:23 He goes for scorn.

25:24 Seven years ago, Our Fathers, which is the the language from the Pentateuch,

25:29 speaking of the patriarchs, it’s the language from the Lord’s Prayer.

25:33 Our father who art in heaven.

25:35 But he doesn’t stop there.

25:37 He goes.

25:37 Brought for our our our fathers brought forth,

25:41 brought forth is the language of creation story in Genesis chapter

25:45 one, in the King James translation, it’s the language of the Exodus story.

25:50 Moses brought forth the children of Israel out of bondage.

25:53 It’s the language of Matthew, chapter one.

25:57 Mary brought forth a child.

26:00 Now, what’s interesting here is these aren’t direct quotations

26:04 in any obvious sense to the Bible, but it’s the use of Bible

26:09 like specifically King James translation like language to

26:13 to impact the weight, the gravitas of the rhetoric.

26:19 Now, more than that, the Bible, of course, is being used

26:22 for very practical purposes, political purposes.

26:26 They see in the Bible models of

26:29 of let’s say, for example, separation of powers.

26:33 Right.

26:33 They read in Deuteronomy chapter 16, 17 and 18

26:37 about the separation of powers between prophet, priest and king.

26:41 And they see here a model of separation of powers.

26:44 They see models for republicanism.

26:47 They might have looked, for example, to Exodus chapter 18.

26:50 Where there’s a kind of rudimentary model

26:53 of republicanism that’s been developed in ancient Israel.

26:57 They see a model of due process in Exodus chapter 23.

27:01 So they’re seen here ideas, models, perhaps

27:05 worthy of emulation in their own experience,

27:10 but they’re also using the Bible for profoundly theological reasons.

27:14 They see in the Bible stories that give insights

27:19 into the ways of God in Providence

27:21 and how God deals with many nations.

27:25 And that’s important to them, right?

27:27 They want to enjoy God’s favor

27:28 and so they want to read how in the pages of Scripture

27:33 they see evidence of how God deals

27:36 with humankind in the material world.

27:39 So they’re using the Bible in a lot of different ways,

27:43 not just theological, but also literary rhetorical.

27:48 And profoundly

27:50 political and also theological ways.

27:53 Right? Right.

27:54 I could have listened to you, talked about Lincoln and Gettysburg all day long.

27:57 But, it’s awesome. What you just said about God.

28:00 Dealing with nations is a great segue into, my next question, which is,

28:04 how does this idea of America as a new Israel, as a chosen people,

28:10 and covenant theology shape American republicanism?

28:14 Yeah.

28:15 So, by the way, I think we should start by acknowledging

28:19 that Americans throughout history have have seen themselves as a new Israel.

28:25 Right?

28:25 The pilgrims, the Puritans, back in the earliest days

28:29 of the 17th century, thought of themselves as God’s new Israel.

28:34 They described themselves they were an oppressed people in Egypt,

28:39 meaning England, you know, suffering political and religious oppression

28:43 under their Stuart monarchs, who were, by the way, their pharaoh.

28:48 They crossed the Atlantic Ocean, their Red sea, they come into a new promised land.

28:53 So as far as as back as the early 17th

28:57 century, Americans are making this comparison.

29:00 Americans in the founding era is going to make the same comparison.

29:05 George the third is their pharaoh.

29:08 We all remember how George Washington was often compared to Cincinnatus, right?

29:13 The Roman dictator general.

29:18 Who returns to the plow in the field?

29:21 But we forget, by the way, that George Washington was compared more

29:25 frequently to Moses, a liberator of his people.

29:30 Then he was compared to Cincinnatus.

29:33 And by the way, this is a comparison Americans are going to make

29:36 into the 19th century.

29:38 It’s part of the abolition, the rhetoric of the abolitionist movement.

29:42 It is, it’s going to be part of the rhetoric

29:44 of the civil rights movement in the 20th century.

29:48 Martin Luther King Jr comes back time again

29:52 to this metaphor of of living under oppression

29:56 and the need for for liberation and and the hope of a new promised land.

30:02 So this is a part of the American story.

30:06 It’s it’s been a part of of American rhetoric

30:10 from the beginning, even continuing to the present day.

30:14 But what does that reveal to us?

30:15 It suggests that Americans see themselves like the ancient Israelites, as God’s

30:21 chosen people, or perhaps to use more modern theological language, the elect.

30:27 Right? They’re God’s elect.

30:29 And God is has favored them.

30:32 May be entitled to God’s special chastisement

30:36 from time to time, but nonetheless, God’s chosen people.

30:40 Or let’s not forget that wonderful rephrasing from Abraham Lincoln.

30:45 God’s almost chosen people, right?

30:47 He wants to stop just a little bit short of that complete comparison.

30:53 But I think it also reveals that Americans

30:56 have seen themselves in a covenantal relationship with God.

31:01 Of course, that goes to the very heart of what it means to be in a covenant.

31:04 God is part of this arrangement.

31:08 God is part of of this agreement.

31:11 So not only do they see them selves as part of a covenant

31:15 with God in this political experiment

31:18 in republican self-government, but they also see themselves in covenant

31:22 with each other in the trying times

31:25 that that they are in and that surely lie ahead.

31:30 Right.

31:30 And, and that, that tie.

31:33 So can you explain, basically covenant a little bit, in terms of, you know, God,

31:37 God punishing and God, you know, blessing and that kind of thing.

31:43 So we see throughout,

31:46 the scripture,

31:47 God entering into a number of covenants,

31:51 agreements with individuals

31:54 and even the nation Israel.

31:57 There are, complete texts for example, in Leviticus,

32:00 I think Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, great covenant texts,

32:06 that speak of the promises

32:08 God makes to those who honor him, but also

32:13 and this should be frightening, the curses to those who who reject God.

32:19 But God also makes covenant relationships with individuals.

32:22 God enters into a covenant with, with Adam, with with Abraham.

32:28 And we see this over and over again.

32:30 Again, God’s entering into,

32:33 an agreement, that, that, that he’s going to honor

32:38 if if those on the other side of the agreement honor him.

32:43 There are great where we sometimes call covenant lawsuit texts.

32:47 In my book, I have a chapter on a verse called

32:50 Micah six eight, where, it’s it’s it’s

32:54 really a, a text about a lawsuit that God has with Israel.

33:00 Israel has departed from God and,

33:03 and and and and he’s he’s got a grievance against his people.

33:07 And he lays out his reasons as to why

33:10 he believes the nation Israel has abandoned him.

33:14 And what’s interesting in in Micah chapter six is the nation Israel

33:19 doesn’t contest the accusation of a departure from this agreement.

33:24 Rather, it acknowledges it.

33:25 And Israel says, what must we do to bring ourselves

33:30 back into right alignment with you, O God

33:33 and and God speaking through his prophet, the prophet Micah says,

33:38 you must do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.

33:43 That’s what’s required to bring a people

33:46 a nation back into alignment

33:50 with God and that covenantal relationship.

33:54 Now, what’s interesting that Americans were drawn to this text,

33:59 this language of a covenant and how to maintain a right relationship with God.

34:04 Here they are in the late 18th century, and they are appealing to this, to this

34:11 conflict of the prophet Micah

34:14 in the nation Israel to two and a half millennia before.

34:18 And it suggests that Americans in the late 18th century

34:22 continue to see themselves as part of a covenant relationship.

34:27 And they’re concerned and interested in maintaining,

34:31 that relationship and that agreement between God and his people.

34:36 Of course,

34:36 these Americans are thinking of themselves as God’s elect, God’s chosen people.

34:42 Again, we may have disagreements about their theology and interpretation,

34:45 but it puts you, I think, in the frame of mind of late 18th

34:50 century Americans and how they relate it to,

34:53 the texts of Scripture.

34:56 Right.

34:56 And so, a final question in a nutshell kind of summing things up.

35:00 How did the Bible shape the American founding?

35:03 Big question. But okay.

35:06 Yeah, I like it when we end on an easy question.

35:08 Right.

35:09 So, let me let me just reiterate something I said at the beginning.

35:14 And because I don’t want us to lose sight of this,

35:17 we’ve been emphasizing the influence of the Bible, and it’s important,

35:20 but I don’t want to dismiss or ignore other intellectual influences.

35:25 Right.

35:25 So there’s a kind of a synthesis of a variety

35:28 of of influences on the American founding,

35:31 many of which are not spiritual or religious in any sense whatsoever.

35:37 And yet Americans are drawing on these diverse influences in, in sort of

35:42 establishing their political project there at the end of the 18th century.

35:48 As we’ve said before, I’m going to say it again.

35:50 I think,

35:53 the Bible is shaping,

35:56 how they view essential concepts that one must grapple with if you’re

36:01 trying to establish a new government, starting with who?

36:05 Who is this government for?

36:07 What is human nature?

36:09 We want to create a government that takes into account human nature

36:14 with its flaws, as well as whatever virtues it might have.

36:18 And so, as we’ve already talked about, it helps the Bible, helps

36:23 the American founders understand, human nature.

36:27 And I can’t overstate how vital that is

36:30 to to not only the government but the constitutions.

36:33 They write the Constitution is obsessed with creating a government

36:39 that takes into account human beings who can’t be trusted with power.

36:43 Right.

36:44 We have a constitution with checks, within checks, within checks,

36:49 and I don’t think we’re going to get there

36:51 unless we understand a kind of biblical understanding

36:55 of human nature that the American founders were tapping into.

37:00 It helps us understand things like separation of powers

37:03 and the like, but it’s also going to help us understand,

37:08 you know, sort of other essential features of our Constitution.

37:12 And we go principle by principle,

37:14 I think, concepts like cruel and unusual punishment is informed

37:19 by mosaic law and limitations that the mosaic law put on punishments.

37:25 It also informs, for example, principles

37:28 like, like double jeopardy, right.

37:32 Double jeopardy.

37:33 It was often said was taken out of the book of the prophet Nahum.

37:38 And this comes in, out in a, in a, a

37:42 a a Bible commentary written by Saint Jerome

37:46 1500 years ago and is woven into the English common law

37:50 and is brought across the Atlantic as part of the Puritan tradition.

37:54 But again, it it seems to have some kind of biblical origins,

37:57 at least in the thinking of Americans

38:01 as they come to the New World.

38:04 So the Bible is going to be woven

38:07 into many aspects, not only of our general understanding of government,

38:12 but even specific features of our constitutional tradition.

38:16 And so I sometimes say, and I’ll offer this by way,

38:20 perhaps of a conclusion to better understand our constitutional government.

38:24 I think we would all do do well to read the Bible, because it’s

38:29 going to be exerting its influence on that tradition in multiple, multiple ways.

38:35 Correct.

38:36 Great. Great interview.

38:38 Daniel Dreisbach, a long term, long time friend to be here.

38:42 I so I want to thank you very much for joining us to discuss

38:46 this important topic as we are preparing to celebrate America.

38:51 250 well, thank you so much, Tony, for having me.

38:54 It’s been a real pleasure. Great. Thank you again.

38:57 And thank you all for joining us for this episode of Scholar Talks.

39:02 Please check out the other interviews in our America 250 series on our channel.

39:07 And don’t forget to click subscribe.