Tenth Period | Reconstruction and Narrative: Amendments and Their Limitations

0:00 hello and welcome to the Bill of Rights Institute’s 10th period webinar series my name is Kirk Higgins I’m the senior manager for education at the Bill of Rights Institute and I’m Rachel Humphreys director of outreach here the Bill of Rights Institute and we are excited that all of you are joining us today for a conversation on reconstruction reconstruction is a pivotal period during American history

0:23 and we’re gonna dig into a little bit of what the Reconstruction period was and how it is that we can best dive into and tell that story from a variety of different perspectives and really pull important lessons from that period I’m going to help us do that this week we’re joined by two guests the first is Liana

0:43 Keith Leanna is a teacher at the Collegiate School in New York City and she is the author of the Colfax Massacre the untold story of Black Power white terror in the death of Reconstruction and has a new book coming out called when it was grand the Radical Republican history of the Civil War so thank you

1:03 for joining us okay thanks for having me and we’re also joined by Michael Sandstrom who is a member of the Bill of Rights Institute leader that Bill of Rights Institute teacher counsel I can speak today it was also the 2019 Nebraska Teacher of the Year by the Gilder Lehrman Institute of American history so thank you for joining us Michael yeah thank you for having me as

1:24 well I’m looking forward to our discussion absolutely and so I think just to kick it off I think just to give us a perspective of what we’re talking about reconstruction Lee and I’m what what are we really talking about and why do we call it reconstruction well literally reconstruction was about the restoration of the reformer rebellious States to what they called

1:47 the proper relation with the Union especially it was about seeding new members of Congress which as the conflict escalated between north and south and reconstruction and radicals took control of congress in those so delegations were not seated without preconditions so you say radicals and I

2:08 heard radical in in the title of your new book which i think is exciting and improbable a phrase that our students latch on to but what made them so radical were they very cool like we were saying in the 60s it’s pretty read something else that made them radical I know I was thinking about them and and I couldn’t think of

2:29 other examples of a movement where they adopt that name for themselves in American history right they really call yourselves the Radical Republicans which they did without shame you know I think that does show just how far how deeply committed they were to far-reaching social change not without self-interest and partisan interests in action because

2:51 a lot of the changes they made where especially to you know the qualifications for writers we’re things that were good for the Republican Party and so Michael is that something that your students pick up on is is the radical piece something that that really stands out to them or or what is it about this period I think that that that really jumps out of your students when

3:13 you’re first diving into it I was getting interested in the question of how radical the Radical Republicans are cuz I I find that to be an interesting question I think students like to look at things on it on a spectrum level where you know Republicans are not all cut from the same cloth at that time period nor are they today I guess so

3:33 they do kind of look into that where they want to know are these ideas something that we would consider radical not largely not you know we would kind of consider them even maybe conservative in certain ways but I think it really latched on to the fact of this kind of political battle and partisanship that happening at such an early level in our

3:55 country and I think that’s something they enjoy I think that’s interesting and I think too and we’ll stay on the sort of the political perspective of reconstruction because I think that’s that’s one element that you can look at this period as right and in particular I’m wondering how it is that that that the 13th 14th and 15th amendments those

4:16 amendments we called the Reconstruction Amendments really play into this story Leana is that are those amendments sort of the beginning of the story are they an essential sort of core or something that’s kind of weaved through how is it that you kind of think about those amendments within this content well you know since I’ve been studying the lead-up to the Civil War and the Civil War years themselves

4:38 recently I have come to look at the Reconstruction Amendments especially number 14 as a correction to problems that were sort of outstanding in American life especially regulating the status of black people after the Dred Scott opinion which had denied to black people all the rights and citizenships

4:59 and not based on their status as slaves but on the basis of their color that was something that cried out to be remade in the American law and the Lincoln administration had been attentive to the problem with sort of the opinions of the Attorney General and moving forward as if black citizenship were real but in

5:20 fact a constitutional amendment was needed to guarantee those rights and so I see that part at least as a continuation and much of the rest of the 14th amendment as addressing either problems that arose during the war or problems that resulted during the sort of first rounds of elections in the south when white conservatives elected a

5:42 lot of Confederates sent men in gray uniforms to Washington to be seated applauded the Lincoln administration and did other things that made them seem you know how to sink with the idea of reconciliation yeah I think I think the digital 14th amendment is one of those

6:03 that that is large and complex and continues to come up I think from here forward in American history so especially as we’re thinking about you know u.s. history survey courses that that stretched the entire year it seems that something really pivotal to focus on is it is it’s something that you take up at this stage Michael and really wrestle with your students absolutely I

6:23 think the 14th amendment is you know one of the central kind of amendments although kind of forgotten of course you know in the 20th century comes vital but I don’t think students have a hard time with the 14th amendment at least for my perspective you know it’s one of these things of we banned slavery we you know we end

6:43 that sort of chapter in our history but what does that mean southerners had a very distinct idea of what that meant from you know Black Codes and various other measures that were meant to intimidate African Americans sweetly free people and at the end of the day I truly believe that that is something species can watch on to sort of that the

7:04 injustice of the situation how Congress at least the Radical Republicans felt that they needed to take measures in order to rectify that situation and I think they kind of sense that and the early foundations the amendment are something that you really understand the motivations but also the political considerations and the tension in

7:25 getting something like that passed one part of your country can’t even be seated because of the because of the war that it just happened so I enjoyed bringing up that I think it’s a central part of when I address reconstruction in that battle and that tension between the President and Congress is viable forever

7:45 both agree with that if I may just step in on this one for a moment because I feel like the 14th is such a great lesson to teach a lot of different things about American history including the fact that it keeps having an impact after the Arab reconstruction comes to an end and it’s a useful thing

8:06 to talk about citizenship to talk about workers rights unionization and interests of corporations in the twentieth century today both of you teach in very different contexts so Lee Ann you’re in New York City teaching at

8:26 a robust private institution and Michael you’re in Nebraska teaching in a robust public institution for both of those populations the tensions in reconstruction are very present in some of their daily experience how do you position this period of career students

8:48 how do you introduce them to the to the to the period so that they draw those parallels or don’t draw those parallels well I would say about my students that reconstruction is one of those lessons where we have to step back and assess the degree to which we’re willing to demonize the south or

9:11 can we also talk about ways that the north also experienced a blossoming of civil rights in the aftermath of the passage of these amendments 14 and 15 you know it was a source of real frustration for northern black people who had been agitating for voting rights for a long time that the first black

9:33 voters in American history were who are former slaves and the enslaved people in the southern states the first voting rights that were extended in many northern states were extended as a result of the 14th amendment you know my students need to think about the north and not oversimplify the sectional relationship to put all the onus for

9:56 racism on the other section absolutely agree I would fall on the same thing I think we run a very difficult you know line I guess you’d say if we start talking about you know exclusive racism in one area if you kind of read into some of those primary documents before the Civil War you’ll see some pretty

10:16 horrendous things being hurled at Republicans from Democrats from the north and I’m sure for more moderate and conservative Republicans as well so it’s not one of those things that you can place blame but I always like to I believe in interest you know for students and so you can kind of hook people in the some angle that that’s gonna be valuable one of my favorite

10:38 angles I guess to go with at least a build interest initially is the power dynamics politically and who gets to make these sorts of decisions whether it’s Congress the presidency who should have the power to wield that authority and why and with Andrew Johnson and his impeachment and all the political issues

10:59 that went along with that that’s how I approach that was kind of through the lens of impeachment and president Trump along with thats why I angled impeachment into something but then tried to backtrack into we’re in very different times very different circumstances but let’s try to understand another period of impeachment

11:19 unlike the one going through now and just that’s the angle I keep I think that’s really great an interesting way to approach it too because I think some of these Steve’s continue and I think reconstruction in particular is one of those that we look at we say gosh you know there’s a great opportunity and

11:39 sort of a missed opportunity and a lot of ways that we construction unfolded right so you know and I wonder too if you could touch a little bit on you know we have we have these legal guarantees now you know with the 13th 14th and 15th amendment and yet the reality that occurred in the South following particularly you know moving into the radical phase where Congress tried to

12:02 take over and then was eventually supported in doing so you know what what that looked like it kind of how how those tensions unfolded in the South in perhaps you know touching on the Colfax Massacre might be a good way of kind of highlighting that just in really the the the challenging legacy that reconstruction leaves us to deal with

12:24 and to think about it’s important for students to think about is you know one of the most amazing things about reconstruction is that in these first elections in 1867 and 1868 when african-american men are empowered as voters voter participation is practically 100% because the army was being used to register voters the army

12:47 was accompanying boaters to the polls and making sure an atmosphere of security made african-americans feel confident that they could vote without facing political reprisal Zoar violent reprisals from their white neighbors but it doesn’t take long for resistance to organize itself in the form of the Klan and the Knights of the white camellia

13:08 and other you know plan desks and organizations that engaged more or less openly in these kinds of politically motivated attacks to intimidate african-americans and to intimidate white Republicans who would ally with him and to try to run the new Republican Party essentially out of the south this

13:29 is something that meets a federal response though grant administration actually makes an effort to police the set up both with the small number of troops that have been stationed there sort of occupiers and with the mechanisms that were set up and malikul the enforcement acts and Ku Klux Klan

13:50 acts legislation in 1870 and 1871 that try to identify the kinds of crimes that white supremacists were perpetrating such as putting on a costume going out in the open road in order to intimidate someone into not exercising different political rights or their civil rights this kind of activity was spelled out as

14:13 federal crime in these laws and for a while they have prosecutions in South Carolina also in Louisiana and the aftermath of the health effects Massacre to try to bring KKK offenders to justice unfortunately a Supreme Court will vacate them and key elements of those

14:34 laws and make it so that few administrations were willing to exercise those kinds of powers in behalf of black voters after 1876 and so you know Rachel I want a few of any thoughts on this too you know thinking about that legacy it’s such a it’s such a difficult thing to approach with with students right and in

14:57 ensuring that that conversation is healthy but also that it’s still human and that the real challenges that face us in those in those stories come out and so I just want to review any thoughts on or Michael to if there’s any stories that you tell in your class of how it is it how it is that you can approach that kind of story through narrative I’ve been ensuring that you

15:18 know we don’t get lost in sort of the political you know legal laws that get passed and and lose some of that the the reality of what was actually happening in those southern states during structure I I guess you know I just I wasn’t sure on I like to point out the

15:40 the distinction between legality as you say and you know I present the the enforcement acts the the 13th 14th 15th amendment and I asked students you know and I mean it did Congress do something to try to promote the rights of freedmen the Freedmen’s Bureau and they so it’s things I’m a big believer that Radical

16:02 Republicans you know whether it was for partisan ambitions or whatever reason I think they made a serious push but I think several of the you know massacres or even there’s a statement by a man named Henry Adams I believe to the Senate in 1882 where he details what it’s like to actually live throughout

16:22 the south you know being able to travel having traveled passes you know seeing people beaten all these sorts of things and I always like to kind of juxtapose those two things with the legality was sort of what’s actually happening on the ground to kind of give someone maybe what the lived experience would have been you know and try to hope that students can kind of understand that

16:44 there is a difference between legal standing you know another example of this might be say Brown versus Board of Education with how the sacred desegregation of schools actually goes in the 1850s you know until the Civil Rights Act there wasn’t quite the same level of desegregation so I always like that talk about lived experience and how these things actually affect real people

17:05 outside of just maybe what a Supreme Court or a Congress has to say on the subject I think that’s well I did want to say that I noticed that and your materials that one of the pieces human precise it’s Jordan Anderson’s letter which is a wonderful sarcastic humorous sort of

17:26 spectrum of the black person’s perspective on on his white neighbors der reconstruction what reconstruction and what freedom mean means to african-americans I tell my students also the story of Colfax Massacre too to the point that I’ve become a little bit of a figure of fun Oh back to Colfax

17:46 massacre we are okay well you did write the book so you have and I think those are and and those primary sources like the letter from Jordan Anderson I think does exactly what you’re describing Michael which is that like humanizing that that lived experience that the idea of that these were real people who had

18:08 real motivations that were as complex as motivations today and there was a plurality of them right so not everyone who was who was on either side was on any side for the same reason right there them you had you had lots of northerners who were advocating for for Indian

18:29 franchise men of African blacks you had southerners who weren’t and the reason that all of those things were happening were complex and I think that part of it part of the difficulty for younger people about this period is that complexity so how do you what do we think that so we have culturally

18:50 responsive pedagogy right we want our students to see themselves in the in our teaching and in the stories that we tell about our teaching we want to tell their story is that they can identify with what would you say in your experience in this period are some of the best stories that you tell what-who Jordan Anderson the Colfax Massacre but who else do you

19:10 really see your students understanding the experience of a really really feeling a connection to for me one of my favorite I’m blanking right now on the name okay there’s a source

19:33 where we talks a lot about education and how people are trying to find you know books and reading materials and how there’s kind of this frenzy to get access to resources for education and I always like to start there with the humanizing where you know you guys may not always enjoy being here at school

19:53 these people are 50 60 70 years old and they want to learn to read they want to write their own names or are these sorts of things and I know that you know kids probably just kind of roll their eyes but I also think that that’s maybe an important aspect understand that you know these people are starting for the most part as fairly – very illiterate

20:14 you know with very few skills and they need to find a way to build themselves up and so on I’m sorry that I’m spacing on the name of what that is but I really enjoy those resources where they talk about education and where they talked about kind of as I said early like Henry Adams where people are you know what’s actually happening behind closed doors

20:34 and not just what you know these conservative Democrats are in the South are saying I wish I could help you with that name I’m not sure exactly what document you’re talking about either but it sounds like the Freedmen’s Bureau you know which documented so many local schools and their effort to have working facilities and materials for teaching

20:56 what is in their curriculum who are their teachers especially as resistance to black education becomes part of the reconstruction landscape you know and the school houses around context Louisiana the students had to contend with showing up and find the building was burned down showing up at bogging human excrement on the teacher’s desk you know school was a revolutionary

21:19 setting for people in these circumstances and so the kinds of songs that you learn the holidays that you celebrated the texts that were part of your education this world politicized and and fiercely resisted you know by whites who wanted to protect

21:39 the inferior social and economic status of their african-american neighbors by keeping them in ignorance of mathematics and that touches on one of one of the Institute’s heroes which is Frederick Douglass he actually speaks to that regularly about the importance that education meant for his own liberation

21:59 and what it will mean for a future liberation during the Reconstruction era and that’s the the the that whole movement of African leaders of black leaders who were at the forefront of helping put forward WB Dubois and Douglass and all of their work speak to

22:21 that that importance of education a lot are there any other stories that really hone in on the on the narrative of the period that help your students recognize the complexity of what’s happening well I certainly want to sometimes see us a little video assist and I think the

22:43 students love to see things depicted cinematically or in documentary films one of the resources for reconstruction more recently has been the wev – excuse me Thea and he’s my my area there I’m talking about Henry Louis Gates and his new book about reconstruction but prior to that there was only a PBS American

23:03 experience which had three story lines like you’re talking about narratives and they had definitely gone all-in on the idea that by telling stories you could understand reconstruction and one of those three was the story of Marshall Twitchell it was an unbelievably brave republican carpetbagger from Vermont and

23:25 who settled in Louisiana and who ultimately paid for his non-conformity with both of his arms yeah he wasn’t intimidated he was continued to be elected to the state legislature with neither of his arms and lived it to an old age you know a story like that I think shows you just what it meant to be a nonconformist in this setting and the

23:49 extent to which people were willing to take risks the other narrative that I think of that I you know and this is sort of pretty civil war but I think it relates to the idea of reconstructing and bringing up how African Americans are going to be integrated into this new world order I guess in a lot of ways the

24:10 the countless numbers of people who are sold away from their families during enslavement and those efforts to regain and reconstitute families I had done for a graduate class at a series on you know Charles ball William Grimes Frederick Douglass several other influential

24:30 people who end up writing autobiographies after they’re free but I just I usually use that narrative of you know one of the biggest challenges is just reconstituting families and how do you go about that and how large of a task that is for the Freedmen’s Bureau and I feel like that’s another thing you know kids care about their families regardless of their situation where they’re from and these

24:52 sorts of things so I like to tie that to family and so I use the specifics from those different people to kind of humanize once again the lived experience of those who would have had to endure this period if I may on that same subject say but a statistic is a useful thing to present to students and on

25:12 Michaels topic of family reunification and what it meant to have been separated I like to tell my students that in the county that became grant Parish the where the Colfax massacre took place in the immediate aftermath of the war the black population dropped from fifteen thousand persons to just ten thousand as

25:32 one-third of all the people living there departed from that is essentially western frontier one of the last places where people were hauled away after being separated by sale from their families one third of those people bugged out looking for their family and that’s part of houses group in the

25:53 aftermath of the Civil War I really changed the landscape of the Civil War that so many African Americans went into motion many of them in the name of family conciliation yeah I think that’s really powerful and and I think those statistics can really bring out and I think it’s interesting that our conversation has gone sort of these two

26:13 directions both in thinking about the legal provisions that sort of laid the groundwork for the growth of civil rights and the recognition the true recognition of equality as well as sort of the human factors of what it meant to experience that growth then that pathway toward freedom is a difficult one in a struggle that requires bravery and and

26:35 is frustrating and horrific at times and I wonder if we could think about just as we’re getting closely in here one of the other thing I think that this period lends well to is thinking about how we tell these stories how we tell history generally so thinking about the historiography of the period of in reconstruction especially I think is one

26:55 of those that is pretty stark in that we can use to help students think about how history is told in different ways at different times and how different aspects of society can influence how that history is being well Liana I don’t know if you could give us sort of sort of the highlights of the story ography and then Michael maybe you could little

27:18 bit how you might use that to work with your students and get them thinking historically you know one concept that historians talk about is the way the South wins the Civil War they were sort of rhetorical battle for moving on from the Civil War as in a very racist era the late 19th

27:40 century historians popularizers the first filmmakers also all become sympathizers with the Confederate cause and the Lost Cause idea emerges very early in the post-civil war era is something really powerful historians especially as subscribe and not just

28:01 southerners but the main school of thought those associated with the sort of pro-confederate lost cause historiography was based here in New York City at Columbia University the so called Dunning school presented a lot of reasons to why the federal role in reconstruction was pickable why we should have sympathy for southerners who are being overrun by by

28:22 abusive governments and that perspective on the civil war held quite strong I mean the first challenge to of course were African Americans who said wait a minute what’s so wrong with full citizenship rights for African Americans what’s an abuse about that and so the great WB Dubois writing in the 1930s like a supernatural work of scholarship

28:43 that he was able to in the Jim Crow era travel around to resources and archives around the south and produce the gigantic and definitive history of what was good about reconstruction that didn’t mean that the field turned on a dime and in fact it takes until the 1980s or the 1990s to really definitively purge especially from

29:03 things like high school textbooks the remnants of that sort of lost cause ideology yeah I when I think about that in the classroom I guess one thing that I hope kids can you know you know we have the mantra and teaching you know we we learn history so we don’t repeat the

29:24 mistakes of the past and I kind of I get it frustrated when I hear that but I guess it leads to my current and continued employment if everyone believes it so I guess I’ll let it go because I think there’s a lot of problems with that but one thing my mantra would be would be more along the lines of you know the history or the understanding of history is constantly in flux you know and we’re we’re putting

29:46 new interpretations to events that people think are long settled and so you know when I start to think about that I have an especially valuable or easy situation to do that in my I go to the same high school that I want our teach at the same high school that I went to that my dad went to and then it’s a new building but my grandfather was also from the from shattering as well and so

30:09 I always like to point out the fact or ask the question do you think the American Revolution has taught the same currently or when I was in school for when my dad was in school and I can basically take him from 20 20 to 20 2007 mid 2000 1980 you know 1949

30:30 and I think the answer for them is clearly not so when we look at reconstruction I think that they can understand that we’ve had an evolution of understanding about how we think of african-americans how we think of the role of the federal government and these new kind of perceptions are able to kind of illuminate to students in very stark terms how things change and you can

30:52 really do that and so I just tried to do that all the time that’s a major thing you know even if they don’t understand each and every met or development the Dunning school through the modern you know Eric Foner of you know understanding of reconstruction I think it’s important that they understand that it does change and they have a real role in making sure that happens yeah and I

31:15 think it’s great and you know one thing we reflect on here and the Bill of Rights Institute is out history is really are all of our collective and living memory right and it’s important to continue to visit that memory and and to deal with it in order to allow ourselves to better understand the context of our own society in the context of how it is that we can best be

31:36 involved in and be aware of those stories both to remember you know tragedies of the past but also celebrate successes and find a way to to really build on that to continue to move us forward so well yeah well thank you all for joining us I really enjoyed the conversation I hope that we’ve shed some

31:59 light on the Reconstruction era I think we’ve covered a lot of ground and it’s been really enjoyable so we Anna Michael thank you both and Rachel as well thank you yeah and we’ll look forward to seeing everybody next time thank you so much thank you bang