Tenth Period | Monuments and Their Meanings: How to Teach About the Complexities of War

0:00 well hello from the Bill of Rights Institute my name is Kirk Higgins I’m the senior manager for education and I’m joined as always by my colleague hi everyone my name is Rachel Davis and humphreys and I’m the director of outreach here at the Bill of Rights Institute and this week we are fortunate to be joined by Mike Knapp who is the chief of historical services at the American battle monuments Commission previously Mike served as historian with the contemporary studies branch of the US Army Center of military history in Washington DC it was detailed as a museum liaison officer to the US Department of Defense Vietnam War commemoration Commission he’s also the co-author of the organization in insignia of the American Expeditionary Force 1917 to 1923 so

0:45 thank you Mike for joining us thanks for maybe and we’re also joined by one of our Bill of Rights Institute teacher council members Sean Redmond Sean is also a teacher fellow at the National World War one Museum in Monument and he teaches US history and civics at a public school in Garden Grove California and he’s been a longtime attendee and friend of the Bill of Rights Institute so we thank you for joining us Sean happy to be here thanks and our our goal today is to talk about monuments and memorials in particular war monuments memorials but we’re hoping to have a conversation just about monuments and memorials generally and by way of sort of getting into that conversation under sake which is a lot about symbolism Rachel I want to do a quick bellringer

1:32 that we think is is great for getting students involved so I sprung this on Rachel earlier today but I asked Rachel and then I also participated in drawing history so when I told Rachel to draw history this is what she drew and so what I like about this activity is it can get your students thinking about symbolism because they’re forced to sort of symbolize what history looks like to them and so now I’m going to attempt to describe Rachel’s symbolism in this image so thinking about history I see a line which seems to be a timeline of some sort because I also see a dashed and dotted arrow the time seems to be dressing in this direction I don’t know if that’s forward or backwards with the

2:18 way cameras work but also seems that these squiggly lines here seem to represent different themes or events in history that maybe are are finding their way forward but they’re not always linear so things are happening but it’s not always in the progress that we think it should these seem to be people maybe so the people who actually make up history and then here this looks like a well-known economic curve of the of prosperity so I think starting in previous times and then coming into the 20th 21st century prosperity seems to be increasing Rachel how’d I do that’s what I did that was amazing really abstract and I did not prep you in any way but I feel like my abstraction came across

3:04 well so now you’re gonna make me look bad because yours is a little lighter on some of the content so I think this is also interesting but it’s more abstract so that’s a little harder for me it’s kind of like the so so I think there clearly is again like time and linearly progresses and then I think maybe these are periods that like a band flow like the the periods of history and then I maybe the dots are discrete events encompassing this like overall flow of history which i think is like the orangie lines how’d I do Kirk you got it

3:51 you know it’s pretty good yeah I would have said I would have said caterpillar so yeah and I think what both of our share one it shows that there’s a lot of different ways to think about history obviously this is something that that we think a lot about so we were probably a little bit more detailed than some of our students may be but but yeah I think it’s interesting that we both had time and both had flow but both of us also we’re drawing knowing that the other was going to interpret right and I think that’s a lot of what happens when we’re thinking about memorials particular is is honoring honoring whatever event or whatever individuals are being represented and how that is you can you can broadcast that to to to to a broader audience and I should say we apologize

4:36 for our technical difficulties speaking of broadcasting we wish we’re coming to all of you live so that we could get all your comments and questions but we are on YouTube and if you have any questions or comments as you’re going through this please comment on our YouTube page I’m or feel free to tweet us at at BR Institute and we will do our best to respond to all your questions and queries but now I’d like to turn it over to Mike just to talk a little bit about what the American battle monuments Commission is and how it is that that they participate this worker of memorials and remembrance okay well the ABMC was founded in 1923 as a reaction to America’s involvement in the First World War and basically it sprang out of

5:26 an unplanned event in that many of the different units that served over in France and Belgium had started putting up their own little small private memorials memorials to their regiment memorials to their division and they were kind of everywhere different different regiments and different divisions did more than others and they ran the gamut from rather elaborate edifices that they built with whatever they had on the end to basically piles of rubble with weapons picked up from the battlefield stuck in them and I General Pershing determined that he didn’t he didn’t want Europe to look like Gettysburg does and he felt that the the units that were over

6:11 memorialized were some of the units that had in fact had lesser participation in the war so it grew out of that that there was the battle monuments board and then it was codified into the the battle monuments Commission and the idea was to have one government entity that would oversee memorialization of America’s effort in World War one in Europe so that’s that’s kind of the origin story however one of the things that’s confusing to people and well aware of this I know Kirk but you know we’re called the American battle monuments Commission but the thing were most well known for our cemeteries and it’s that’s nowhere in our title basically what happened with that was the cemeteries that were created overseas and I think will speak to that

6:57 a little bit later but they were initially created by the greys registration service of the Army quartermaster Corps and I when the war was over and everybody was was located that could be found and was buried and after they made the decision on you know who would know who would they be returned or not everybody that was left was interred in the cemetery and the cemeteries were not active cemeteries like say Arlington or any of the other national cemeteries here in the states and the quartermaster Corps basically said okay you know our jobs done we don’t manage these things we just build them and it was at that point that the mission was handed over to a BMC since they were already taking care of the memorials overseas and that’s why we have them today so that’s kind of what

7:43 we do and that mention has continued to the present to memorialize the service of American armed forces around the world but we no longer have cemeteries there are no new ones we bring everybody home ever since after World War two though how many cemeteries are there that the ABMC overseas no you just put me on the spot just 20 27 I believe we just added in 2016 the Lafayette Escadrille memorial just outside of Paris actually has a crypt underneath and there are 49 Americans buried there and so through negotiations with the private organization that owned it and

8:29 created it and the French government in 2016 ABMC took control of it because there were Americans buried there so that that adds to our count of cemeteries and then we have memorials of course for both wars as well as more modern memorials too that’s really interesting in Sean I know this is something that you think about a lot so you know sometimes war it can be sort of a sombering topic but how is it that you find ways to bring this into your classroom I guess what do you think is is powerful about about bringing these kinds of topics into your classroom for your students well I think what’s great is that you have an opportunity for students to look at these things and kind of identify these shared values that we have values that come out of courageous apps by people

9:15 usually the courageous acts could be I’m not talking just battle memorials or cemeteries but also work done by people like Fannie Lou Hamer Martin Luther King jr. things like that where students get a hold of all that and they they really like to understand what’s going on I think that helps us with a kind of an identity with each other to to take it beyond what just the statue is but to dig deeper into some of those ideas and issues yeah I think that’s I think that’s you know really interesting as a way to of almost directly connecting with history right so it’s it’s not just now we’re looking at a page we’re also experiencing it in a way right we’re experiencing it as those who are viewing a memorial put up by previous generations to honor either fellow

10:01 compatriots within that generation or later events and so that makes me think Mike to of I know that I know that I know that the battle monuments Commission continues you said maintains I guess what kind of events go on there I know Memorial Day is a big event for the ABMC and in those cemeteries overseas but what kinds of things take place at those cemeteries as a way of maintaining the memory of the remembrance of those who are buried there yeah I think I think that’s a that’s a really interesting question because of course Memorial Day is big for us every year November the 11th Armistice Day Veterans Day is very big in the past year of course we just came out of the centennial of World War one so there was a lot of rather unique ceremony at each

10:50 cemetery of the World War 1 cemeteries that coincided with the events or the campaign that that cemetery is tied to if you will I think probably one of the things that happens which is more indicative of how we maintain continual relevance is there always school groups that visit and a lot of people I think find this surprising because their their school groups of French kids or Dutch kids Belgian kids and these school groups a lot of times are brought in to the cemeteries and that’s part of their curriculum where they speak about the occupation and subsequent liberation of their countries and the sacrifice is made by the Allied armies in in those Liberation’s so so rather than being a

11:37 set ceremony it’s this visitation and within that oftentimes this those school groups will stay and they’ll participate in either the raising of the flag at each cemetery in the morning or the lowering in the afternoon and it’s a small sort of intimate kind of a ceremony that takes place every single day this the cemeteries but it allows them to to be a part of that and I think I think that’s kind of the hook that gets them into that understanding and that that that you know how do you teach that lesson that what these these headstones represent an individual and oftentimes when we talk about middle and high school classes this is an individual that maybe is only one or two years older than you are now and to try and understand you know what happened

12:22 and the events that led to them being there beyond that I mean there are different ceremonies that happen at different times sometimes they’ll be ceremonies that deal with a person who is listed on one of the walls of the missing who has remains if he’d have been located or identified through DNA and a rosette is placed there to denote that that individual has now been found so sometimes they’ll be small family ceremonies like that we have ceremonies so we’re working with some groups that are dealing with the families of Jewish veterans who were buried mistakenly under a Latin cross and they’re working to have those change the Stars of David so they’re small cemetery there again that might be more more intimate and family sort of private ceremony so it kind of runs the gamut but but I think

13:08 to the two what we’re speaking about today and the whole idea about teaching these these kinds of lessons the the school visits are probably the most important ceremony if you will for like a better work yeah I think one of the things that I that is so profound about those kinds of visits is the pedagogy of place right like that this that every monument just like our silly drawings we’re trying to abstractly convey something something much bigger than ourselves something broader something deeper and meaningful every Monument also is trying to do that the intent of the monument is to convey an emotional response to the activity in that place whatever that may be and that’s that’s

13:55 all monuments throughout all history right whether it’s the Nazca lines in Peru or the you know Arlington National Cemetery they’re trying to convey some emotional connection to that place and so can we we can talk a little bit about how how that does that for young people so Sean being a part of the world war one Memorial what is how do we how do you see young people connecting when they’re in these places well one of the things is that you said it brings up a lot of emotion the the students feel a lot of emotion but it’s not necessarily the emotion that you would think so they might be angry and a certain why are all these people killed or we should have

14:41 never fought in the Vietnam War or something like that but it brings up critical thinking in a way that just learning about history can’t because you’re sharing a collective memory of meaning at the same time you’re allowing for a difference of political interpretations of the event different groups different students have different interpretations so as you’re looking at that and trying to say what are the differences they’re one of your feelings what’s going on what do we have in common what are those shared values that we’re working for is this this mean something to you or not and I think it brings out a much better a way of thinking for the students when they start looking at that way and thinking about shared memories shared values what are we trying to teach and it’s something they haven’t thought of before yeah I think so also students have

15:28 different reactions I think when they see others reactions to that brings them a little bit more into focus why are they thinking that way and when they think what about this well this different students have different thoughts about it and so they can converse with each other’s it makes great critical thinking yeah I think that’s great in in your comment on on values being reflected to makes me you know think about how it is that that that ABMC monuments memorials are are established I mean there’s a lot of thought and intentionality that went into their design it Mike I don’t know if you can share maybe some of the commonalities that are found at the the different monuments memorials that the ABMC houses because I think that can be a good reflection to on on American civic culture or American culture

16:15 generally and and how it is that we think about honoring honoring our fallen sure well I think I think it’s twofold what and and we talked about this a little bit earlier before we went live with this but you know all of our our memorials tend to be civic works of public art I mean they are there that’s by definition what they are but they’re they’re very much a indicative of their time when they were created so if you look at the memorials for World War one they basically are they exist to say this was a large campaign that the US forces figured prominently in or in the case of our fountain and tours this was

17:01 the city where you know all the supply base this was the big logistical hub in France in World War one and and so the the art of them is is indicative of that there’s there’s nothing that’s necessarily bellicose if you will the there’s a lot of iconography and symbology in the world war one memorials a lot of ba relief of bits of uniform and division insignias and and accoutrements and you know some of my favorite things are you know little heads of pack mules that are carved into the cornices that you know almost like a a Gothic cathedral and that changes by World War two in World War two there’s more art that’s reflected period in the late 40s and the 50s when

17:47 these were created and there’s more art that I think is symbolic of comradeship of the spirit of youth at Normandy of course rising out of the waves is one that’s seen a lot so so there’s a change that way and when we get to the more modern ones that have been done recently there’s a there’s a lot more thought put into the the imagery and and abstract is not exactly the right word but I think of the most recent one that was dedicated about a year ago in New Zealand which commemorates all the American forces that were stationed in New Zealand in World War two that allowed the New Zealand forces to actually go fight and it is its design that’s supposed to be evocative of the waves crossing the ocean and there’s a quote in there that just talks about the

18:34 the friendship and comradeship of New Zealand in America and and so it’s very different in feeling from the World War one the great massive memorial at Mont sec which is just about slightly smaller than the Jefferson Memorial and it’s in that sort of neoclassical design so they change and we also have little ones that are simply just granite blocks so it kind of runs the whole gamut I’m not sure if I’m kind of gone off track to the question but you know I think I think when you look at these they they evoke a different reaction but all of them serve to at least you know to the point that Sean made that they get you thinking about it well why is this here why does it matter and you know whether you agree or disagree you know with the

19:22 fact that we sent people halfway around the world you know to what’s now you some of the money that you can’t get to like Guadalcanal but it evokes thought and I think it does that through a number of different ways and on different levels it can do that just with regard to to the architecture in the art of the time period as well as the subject matter that it’s memorializing yeah I think that’s really profound and the other thing and you can’t help but doing this is you’re describing each one of these memorials is the stories that it evokes right so that each one of these monuments memorials is a part of a story of a conflict also tells the story the individuals who were fallen and are memorialized at these different monuments memorials I remember many years ago I was able to go to the meuse-argonne cemetery hmm in

20:10 France and memorialized there I believe it was at the meuse-argonne is a wall in on the wall there’s names of US soldiers who fell at Archangel and in Russia right and so to me that’s a really profound thing because when you think about war one you don’t think about American involvement in Russia and yet that you know the Soviet revolution was taking place if we were actually involved in conflict there and we memorialize those soldiers on that wall and so to me it’s a really profound way of keeping history alive in a way that that almost invites more inquiry and invites more questions and Shawn I don’t know if you found that to be the case I’m in your classroom but it seems like I mean these memorials can be a really good just conversation starter for looking at wrinkles in a conflict that the students may not even been aware of and when they come to class you know in

20:57 high school with less and less over the years been teaching a long time less and less historical knowledge and appreciation and so forth and so I mean I understand why our students studying history when their highest moral standard they have is their own opinion so the lack of that historical knowledge course and an emphasis on feelings instead of critical and rational thought empowers them to make ad hominem attacks it emphasizes the difference we have instead of the things though that we have together I sort of got that idea when I’ve been going to different seminars and different callings so meet people from across the country so forth people have different political opinions different opinions on how to interpret advance but there are some things that are just the same that everybody has and so I just feel like if we don’t find

21:43 wisdom from the past you know then what are we studying history for there Scott there’s got to be lessons from from the past so as I was saying before you you find a clarity of the significance of those important events that show virtues and values and that’s far more important than agreement of any specific political opinions or anything like that so they they teach us to promote unity that transcends kind of tribal tendencies and so forth the very fact of the idea of the u.s. being based on shared values it’s not based on ties to land or race or wealth or anything like that we have values that have to be taught they’re not instinctual so if we want to emphasize things like equal opportunity freedom discipline charity things like that

22:28 those are learned values and we get those from people of the past we’ve done great things and and by bringing students to attention to those sort of things I think that it brings a better clarity and a better focus on history that they haven’t had before if I could jump in and and follow on what Sean said one of the things that we’ve tried to do here in the ABMC with him really the last I would say five five or six years is to try and and find a way to be to be more educational if you will in the past you know we used to say that ABMC was really a grieving organization which was just aimed at dealing with the people that were coming that the knew very well firsthand because they were relatives they knew about that war they knew the

23:15 history of it and they were coming to see their relative and you know as we look at the World War two generation the children in the World War two generation are now in their 80s and and so we’re getting further and further away from people that instinctually to Shawn’s point kind of know what this is all about so we’ve tried to to do more with our new visitor centers that we’re building and and developing educational programs and one of the things we’re we’re very lucky is that all of our memorials are tied well let me rephrase that all of our memorials in in Europe are more closely tied to a cemetery or in close proximity thereof and what we’ve started doing is working to to

24:00 find the individual stories of the people that are in the cemetery and so you can have this monument that talks about the meuse-argonne campaign and then you go to the meuse-argonne and you can find out as you said about all the North Russia and siberian expeditionary forces and you can find out the stories of individual soldiers Freddie Stowers who was the the first African American to get a Medal of Honor for World War one which wasn’t awarded to 1991 by George HW Bush posthumously you know you have the stories of these individuals you have stories of brothers and to the point of about the composition of America one of the big things that we do in all of our visitor centers is we highlight the fact and World War one is a great vehicle for this I’m sure Sean knows this because of

24:46 his work with the World War one folks in Kansas City you know we can talk about the rising role of women the role of immigrants the role of African Americans I mean it’s it’s from from a social standpoint it’s phenomenal so we’ve really tried to key on that too – Sean’s points to try and have something that you can take away regardless of you know of where you are and what you feel about politics or anything it’s all been sort of divorced from that and it really is talking about these individuals and how does this event in history affect all these different types of people so I think in a way we’re kind of lucky to have that ability to to marry those two together that’s great Rachel I thought you were about to say something yeah I was I was wondering so

25:31 we in the moment that that a monument is created it represents the values and the interests of those that created there’s this idea of demonstrated preference right but then they wouldn’t spend their resources creating this monument unless they thought that that was the most important thing for them to do with those resources and we see that that values shift slightly over time and so I’m wondering how you help students kind of honor the shared values while still recognizing that some of these monuments commemorate things that culturally we are no longer as as we find as honorific

26:17 does that music does that make sense how would you how are you how are you approaching that question or how do you approach that question with students well I think that if you if you look at these things these events and so forth the students understand I think they get to a point where they understand it’s not just the events necessarily taking place if there may be against it but they there are things do on or within that so instead of a celebration of war you have a commemoration of courageous acts or things like that so obviously we’re not going to celebrate the death of Martin Luther King jr. but the commemoration of the work that he did you know and honestly you could

27:04 certainly argue that that that would have not as much difference he was not assassinated so these sort of things come to light that are they’re huge so if you visit the Civil Rights Museum in Memphis at the Lorraine Motel where he was shot it’s an amazing experience and people look at those things in the end it draws their thoughts to to what happened the way things should be and so forth so any thinking that you can do about that and that it lots that you can bring with that are good things because it creates dialogue and creates critical thinking skills and it helps people try to understand not just where we’re at but where we’re going so so if you have if you have history just knowing where you’re at on a map that doesn’t help you know where you’re going we have to look at the past to understand the wisdom and

27:50 know where you’re going in the future that’s the tools the students need not personally for themselves but collectively for us as a society as a republic that that continues to evolve in in matters of freedom and so forth that are that are good things so yeah I think that unifying notion is is something that’s really interesting and has struck me when I’ve when I’ve gone to many of these cemeteries and it’s really how it is that how does that when you when you walk in you know Mike is you were kind of touching on how all these stories come together and yet it’s in a very elegant I think way and things are laid out but it but it’s almost in a way that welcomes you in it welcomes you to a moment of contemplation and I think that’s another thing that I found really

28:35 powerful about memorials generally in particular I think cemeteries do this whether their civilian cemeteries or our public on cemeteries is it’s to really welcome that moment of reflection in that moment of quiet where you can go and look at the symbolism that’s there in trying to draw that out and and I think it’s a good way to to kind of invite students to take that pause too but what I think is profound is that even in our cemeteries which is not the case for all the nations on that have cemeteries scattered across the European battlefields particularly for for one or two that we do memorialize individuals I think it’s just a profound thing that we have individual names on headstones whether they are known or unknown I think it just it is very

29:23 reflective of our culture as Americans and is again a way of highlighting those things that that often go overlooked you know everybody seemed you know cemeteries already seen you know a picture of you know the the goddess of the Republic you know standing there and all her accout from all but when you really stop and think about things I think that’s when a lot of these lessons can really kind of spill forth yeah I would agree and I think I think one of the things that we talk about here a lot is if you know and and this gets sort of esoteric and into our mission but you know one of the things we like to say is you know if you go to one of these places and you see somebody’s name and

30:10 you speak that person’s name then they’re not forgotten they’re not gone you know so for us that’s it’s almost a personal thing so so I think from that standpoint our cemeteries really are very mean we want people to go there that’s the whole purpose of them and that in by doing that the cemetery made up of all those individuals becomes its own one larger memorial that memorializes not so much specifically an event but the fact that all these people are working together for a common cause and that they were willing to sacrifice for that cause and and there’s a quote that I’m probably going to misquote that and I’m sure it’s in Conners book that you know you you can judge a character of the country by the way it

30:55 memorializes it’s war dead and and I think that the we accomplished that at the ABMC cemeteries in a very spec full way and not in a not in a bellicose way and not not like you know a tyrannical victor lording it over somebody but rather almost celebrating the individual or in multiple individuals working together memorial also have a personality all their own if you look at the world war museum for example you have this huge tower that celebrates commemorate commemorates but in recent years you see the memorials have changed where you have the Vietnam let’s say memorial that has a more

31:42 horizontal space to it instead of a large tall celebration so it’s more relatable and people are standing in front of it and they they see the reflection of themselves as they’re looking at all the names it’s a very moving thing so some of these things like Kirk was saying and also Mike you have the symbolism of great things when you walk into the World War Museum the first thing you do is walk across a glass bridge and below there are all kinds of poppies each poppy represented thousand people that died so you’re looking at the Flanders Fields the poppies thinking about hopefully the the poem and everything and it creates a sombre attitude as you’re going in there one of the one of the times at the World War One Museum we were being taught by

32:28 dr. Jay winter and he was saying that something so significant he said that that the language of memory is silence and as I thought about that a time how fantastic you know you’re going all these places being it let’s say the 9/11 museum in New York I’m standing there has a church like reverence as people are thinking about about values about what happened how should you respond how people responded what were the losses what were the gains and so forth it it’s an amazing thing so there’s a there’s a lot going on if you look at other people at it you can see their processes it’s very moving when you when you look at somebody else and see it’s even more moving than just thinking to yourself as you’re sort of gazing into their reflection and so forth yeah and we’re coming up close the end of our time here

33:14 but I will kind of invite everybody if they want to think about this but one thing Mike mentioned earlier which i think is really profound is something that occurs at all of these cemeteries every day which is a flag raising a flag or or lowering I mean I think that’s it that’s an action that takes place because I think actions can also be a way that we memorialize and remember these things I mean can be inspired by these memorials and Rachel I know that this is something we think about a lot too is is how how is it that we can use symbolism in the past to inspire student-student thoughtfulness and student action and that struck me as as a really profound symbol of of what that is because in not only the raising and lowering but also the maintenance I mean if you go to any of these memorials they are so well maintained and they are beautiful and immaculate and and I think that’s that those actions are all part

34:00 of that that reflection of that memorial as well and I think that that’s reflected in the quote you shared earlier Mike about how we how we treat our how we honor those that came before us reflect something about our culture and I keep I gave them a movie Coco is this really delightful film that really risks has a beautiful sense of how to respect family and culture and I think about that whenever I see stories of usually young men who take it upon themselves to find cemeteries that aren’t well maintained especially more cemeteries here in the u.s. that aren’t

34:45 well maintained and taken upon themselves to clean them or to maintain them themselves and then thinking about what that would mean if you’ve ever participated in laying the wreaths here at Arlington so Arlington is here it always is raining on the day that you washing to be see I don’t know how that happens every single year but it is always cold and raining on the day you have to lay the wreaths at Arlington National Cemetery but if students ever have the opportunity to do that there’s a really profound sense of belonging right that you are part of something greater than yourself that you have you you there is a respect to those that that helped bring about the world

35:32 we live in today and so I’m wondering about kind of as our final thoughts is how do we how do we encourage what are what are our thoughts to those teachers out there who are like oh I wish I could do this what what can we tell our teachers about how they can encourage their students to have that sense of civic engagement so I’ve had a lot of success with students obviously we can’t go to all these places but for students to be able to look stuff up so we’ve done receipt research projects memorials they you know with Google Earth and with Google slides and things like that they could gather on no trifold storyboards PowerPoint you know we got flipgrid

36:18 storybird piktochart all these things are are web-based programs that you can use just look up and and they can sort of build these things together I also started a Memorial Day I’m sorry a Veterans Day Memorial at our school and so I got the the JROTC at our school we have them so I know not every place has that they were on board we started putting up a memorial every year on Veterans Day the our we got our teachers to get mannequins to make cabinets to do things like that and we started reach out to veterans groups to City Council’s that gave us lists of people that had served and perished somewhere and then we started putting all this together inviting speakers and everybody to come

37:04 and it turns out to be a great annual event to be able to set something up salute we I asked the student the same do you have anybody that serves or served in the military well they’re bringing in their their cousins the brothers their uncles their ass things like that and they’re and they’re coming in and we have people that are giving all these this information and it turns out to be great they love it they buy in we have some great surprises sometimes of people who say well look my my father did this a secretary at our school said well you know my father was one of the first take and the japanese-american who’s taken and putting the camps and then sent to translate they to Fort Snelling in Minnesota later than n – to San Francisco and I told her oh

37:51 my gosh the summer before I’d just been to the to the area in San Francisco and looking at the Korematsu Center and they have this great situation about all that informations is fantastic so she was excited to go see that then yeah I you know I I would say that I think it’s possible in a lot of different ways to just be involved in something and I think you know I think what John was saying any of these things where you engaged people I think you can almost look at memorialization now as performance art that if if you can get the studio and caveat not speaking as a

38:38 professional educator so if I say something wrong don’t beat me up but honestly I think that if you know if you can engage the students in doing something around some event that you’re memorializing and it doesn’t even have to be you know the military stuff shamelessly plugging us go to our website there’s some great ideas and great information a BMC gov but you know if it gives everything about civil rights if we do if you if the students do something in conjunction with a civil rights period and episode and event women’s rights with suffrage you know any of these things I think this is a new a whole new way to look at memorialization which is kind of what we’re trying to get folks to do at our sites but to participate to

39:24 actively participate and by doing that it’s a living memorial ization of whatever whatever you’re interested in whatever we’re trying to highlight and and remember so you know I think that’s fabulous and you know anything that you can do in my opinion that that gets a hook into into young kids to get them to be interested in this stuff you know I’m a history geek like all you guys so I’m is but you know I think it’s a wonderful thing and it’s just a great way to go my grief you a hundred percent and that’s why I was just saying some of these web-based formats people can go look and they can cream things it’s a great thing like like you said for students and so forth to be able to do that it’s it’s wonderful I’ve had good success with it and so you kind of bring the memorials bring the monuments to you and and have them kind of kind of look it up and you do kind of

40:10 a walkthrough or virtual virtual field trip yeah it’s pretty great there are actually for those of you that can’t don’t have the funds to invest in a 3d and a full 3d headset there are a lot of 3d videos on YouTube of the of the monuments and memorials and cemeteries and what you can do is you can get something called a Google cardboard which is only ten dollars and you spot your phone in there and then you can look around kind of in a 3d panorama of the space and really bring the life that that idea of a virtual field trip for only ten dollars and stand up spending however much six hundred dollars you need to get out proper VR headset the Google cardboard

40:55 is a really great feature that’s terrific and as Mike said a BMC gov they do a lot of great resources and just a great opportunity to learn more about our overseas cemeteries and memorials and so thank you Mike for coming on and Sean for joining us we really appreciate it and we apologize again to everybody for our technical difficulties but we hope you still enjoyed the webinar and as I said please feel free to send in your comments and questions and we’ll do our best to get those answered and we do hope that you’ll come back and join us in a couple weeks we are having a a Bill of Rights Day special so Bill of Rights Day is December 15th it’s a day near and dear to our hearts so male of Rights Institute as we are the Bill of Rights and students so we will be releasing a rather fun fun video that talks about

41:41 those ten amendments and we hope that you’ll check it out so thank you again everyone for joining us and ah the video will be released December 11th that’s right in advance so as you’re preparing to celebrate Bill of Rights day like all of us do trust the nation absolutely so before two weeks before Christmas absolutely so but Sean biking in so much really enjoyed the conversation and we hope to talk to you both soon and thank you all for joining us