Robert McDonald: Reviewing BRI’s New Textbook | BRI Scholar Talks

0:02 hi i’m tony williams a senior fellow with the bill of rights institute and i am very honored to be having another life liberty and the pursuit of happiness scholar talk this time we are very honored to have one of the main one of the two main editors for the entire resource

0:23 uh we are so pleased to have rob mcdonald from west point uh and let me introduce you rob robert mcdonald is a professor of history at the u.s military academy at west point where he has taught since 1998 he’s a specialist in the eras of the american revolution and early american

0:43 republic he is a graduate of the university of virginia oxford university and unc at chapel hill where he earned his phd he’s the author of a fantastic book called confounding father thomas jefferson’s image in his own time an editor most recently of thomas

1:05 jefferson’s lives biography biographers and the battle for history as well as several other volumes that you’ve edited on thomas jefferson he’s published articles in numerous scholarly journals including the journal of the early republic and he’s a great friend of bri so rob

1:26 well welcome very much and thanks so much tony and i you know thank you so much for for uh lending that herculean effort uh over uh three years to creating life liberty and the pursuit of happiness your contribution was was really invaluable so thank you well i appreciate that and uh it’s fantastic that it’s finally out

1:48 and you know perusing it and seeing it in its finished form um i have to say i’m pretty pleased with the job everybody did i think it’s really going to be a valuable resource great great well uh i i forget the exact word count but i think you read probably a couple million words while you’re or you’re reviewing everyone’s every

2:08 scholars work so well why don’t we jump right in so as i said rob you you reviewed the the entire resource a monumental effort uh tell us what you drew to the project and and maybe uh you know some of the challenges and rewards along the way of uh helping to review and edit an entire book and project like this

2:31 well first of all you know the bill of rights institute is a fantastic organization and i i’ve worked with you in the past as you’ve pointed out and i’ve always been impressed by the quality of the resources that you provide to teachers and through them to their students so i knew it would be good um and i also knew i would learn something i mean i learned a lot by reading those million words

2:52 and um you assembled an all-star cast of historians to write various components of this textbook and um yeah i mean i learned something on every page so it was really a great experience great great and and so uh so that’s something some of the rewards and challenges i mean it’s it’s you know

3:13 um what you know maybe explain to the the teachers and students viewing you know what what is it like to work on a project like this well it was time consuming that that is for sure and um you know sometimes the deadlines mounted and the uh chapters stacked up uh but bill of rights dude was very patient with me and uh and and also very you know good

3:35 at reminding me um of the tasks at hand uh it was interesting to read different accounts by different historians i mean you know you may want to let me talk a little bit about the components of each chapter um you know each one begins with a fairly lengthy introductory essay which provides kind of a

3:56 bird’s-eye view of a particular era in american history um but then each chapter has about 10 or 15 uh chapter narratives that are about 1 000 or 1500 words that dive pretty deep into specific issues um and events there are also decision points essays which allow readers to get inside

4:18 the heads of historical figures who had to grapple um you know in their real world in their real time with important you know dilemmas and considerations uh there are also debates um that take place in the text between historians uh these point counterpoint um discussions so those are really interesting helping

4:38 people to appreciate um you know two or more sides of various topics and of course there are primary sources and you know ideas for teachers in the classroom so it’s a really full and rich account and you know reading all those different pieces allowed me um to learn new things

5:01 uh relearn things that um that i already knew um and also you know there were a few points where i came across interpretations that i was not familiar with or or that didn’t you know necessarily jive with what i thought i knew so they caused me to go to the library um and do a little bit of research so overall it was a really positive and

5:22 uh i thought healthy experience for me as a historian right and and some and some ideas and and interpretations that you disagreed with right uh and so that was part of the reviewing process and we had another scholars carol birkin uh reviewing the whole thing as well and we also had individual unit reviewers for every unit uh as well

5:43 as those hunter scholars we had an internal review of it um and we also sent it out to some partners so this is very very rigorously uh reviewed by many many scholars and uh and they you know honestly they just didn’t always agree but that’s what makes it history interesting i think uh and we want the students to model

6:04 that by thinking for themselves about these these issues and looking at primary sources and such and uh i’ll point out that i ran into carol about a year ago at a conference and we certainly agreed on just the weight of this source i mean there are a lot of different pieces to it a lot of different components to it and one of the things that i think is so

6:25 exciting is well you know carol and i had to read everything um individual teachers can choose which portions you know they want to provide to their students so depending on the amount the amount of time that they have at their disposal depending upon the student’s abilities uh the amount of reading load that they’re comfortable with um they can really customize this um

6:48 you know for their own particular classroom exactly they can use one or two pieces 50 or 60 throughout the year or just adopt it entirely uh it’s yeah it’s a great flexible resource in that regard okay well and and you’ve kind of alluded to this already uh but how is life liberty and the pursuit of

7:08 happiness different than than most other high school or even you know freshman college level textbooks out there so i think a big difference and i think it will be apparent to students even if they don’t immediately realize it a big difference is that a standard textbook written by one or

7:30 two or three authors purports to be the truth right it purports to be the story it purports to be the narrative whereas what the bill of rights institute has put together um kind of exposes people to the fact that history and this is one of the things that makes history exciting is that it

7:50 is very much about interpretation it’s very much about taking the basic facts of history you know which usually aren’t in dispute um but but then combining them into a narrative that makes sense and and that you know con conforms with the individual authors understanding of

8:10 the truth and and we all largely agree on you know the basic story of american history um but what gets emphasized um and and and how you know different stories are positioned or juxtaposed next to one another you know can really affect um the flavor of history and i think that it will make students as

8:32 well as their teachers much more thoughtful about that because there are you know so many you know diverse and varied viewpoints that come through not only the viewpoints of historical characters but but also the viewpoints of modern day historians right fantastic ball set um and and you alluded to uh the

8:52 storytelling and narratives what what is the importance of good storytelling uh in in a history book well you know i should be asking you that question since you’re doing so well and and your works um i i think look if if you can’t tell an interesting story in history you are failing miserably at your job

9:13 history is full of interesting stories yeah make it boring right but you can make it boring people do make it boring um but fortunately i don’t think any of the people who were participants and collaborators in life liberty and the pursuit of happiness made it boring i mean they really highlighted some of the most essential some of the most

9:34 exciting some of the most controversial some of the most interesting episodes in american history and they they did it with clear writing um they did it with active prose uh they did it with uh you know rich use of quotations not too much but but you know they allowed people to speak for themselves um and yeah overall i think it is

9:57 a truly compelling um textbook if we even want to call it that i mean it is it’s a textbook online um but it has all these different parts um and it is so customizable and uh yeah it just stacks up into something that’s i think so much more rich than your traditional ap us history textbook

10:17 right it’s really a just a tapestry of different voices really moving together you know both historical and and historians as you said and we really tried to appeal not only to the students intellect but to their souls as well uh and and i i think that really comes across throughout the book and and i should point out this

10:38 too it is woven together um you know you and and the others who sort of brainstormed this concept and you know laid out the uh the arrangement of the chapters and i know that you were doing this in accordance with um the college board’s ap u.s history standards but you know there are threads that that

11:00 connect all of the different chapters um there are issues that are you know returned to again and again so that there really is sort of an extended and sustained examination of some of the most important themes in american history yeah exactly and a couple of those would be you know what what is the role of government in our lives um what is the purpose what are the

11:22 purposes of american foreign policy how have they changed over time you know americans humans relationship to the environment uh and and also you know the economy and and economic issues keep coming up over and over again so yeah we really try to weave those threads in but also do a lot of constitutional principles uh point you know students

11:45 back to what it means to be an american uh and and civic virtues as well right thinking about citizenship and civic virtues and and you know students uh you know within their communities uh and how how americans you know uh lived in in those communities uh over time as well so yeah all very very critical to that

12:05 story well uh next question so i think what are some of the historical skills uh we really emphasize that in in life liberty and the pursuit of happiness what what historical skills can students learn i think maybe one of the most uh important skills that a person can develop through studying history

12:26 is learning how to be an intelligent consumer of evidence and you know one of my favorite pieces of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness are the point counterpoint debates um to see two historians uh you know taking sides on you know a specific issue and by the way i’m not sure that all the historians

12:47 necessarily agree with the point that they argue so it’s very you know sportsmanlike of them to uh to take on this challenge um you have to be able to argue the other side right you have to right i mean if you understand your position really you you need to be able to uh be able to argue the opposing position and and so these debates are

13:08 really spectacular um and students will be able to look at you know two different sides of of an argument um stack them up uh you know look at the quality of the evidence that is um presented but also look at the type of the evidence that is presented you know some arguments are more qualitative whereas others are more

13:28 quantitative so i really think that it will allow people to develop their skills as consumers of information and also of course their powers of analysis right and and two very important skills in today’s world right where we have the internet and social media and and a lot of false claims out there

13:50 so uh how do the students weed through all that evidence to to come to a reasonable conclusion about something based upon hard evidence so yeah that’s right yeah so it’s essential to what we do as teachers i think so uh so why do you think reading the stories and hearing the voices of more than 100

14:11 different historians i mean this is just so unprecedented every time i think of it is is important for students instead of that one long grand master narrative we’ve alluded to it already but maybe we can come back to that idea well i i don’t want to dehumanize us our type our ilk um but in a way all of us historians

14:32 are filters right i mean we look at the facts of the past um and we filter them into stories that we produce into narratives that we produce um and i think we’re all honest people i think we’re all trustworthy people i think we’re all well-intentioned people um and yet you know two wonderful people uh you and

14:54 me if we were given the same set of facts and asked to write them up into an account um our accounts would be different um you know they’d both be awesome and amazing tony but they would be different um and awesome and amazing in their own ways so i think it’s really useful for teachers and students to see historians at work and to see how you know different people

15:16 can come to different conclusions and to see how people are able to bring their own particular perspectives and their own particular training um to bear some historians are uh you know diplomatic historians some are economic historians some are social historians some are historians of race class gender all of those different

15:38 types of history are going to influence practitioners of history especially when they approach you know such a broad topic as the history of the united states right well we’ll leave our debates over thomas jefferson and alexander hamilton for another time there’s no debate they’re both fantastic they’re both great

15:59 and you couldn’t you could not have one without the other they need each other tonight that’s sure all right excellent next question so so how are students taught to think critically rather than just accept what they’re told or accept this submission voice out there uh in this in this new book life liberty

16:20 and the pursuit of happiness well i think you know it goes back again to the way the entire text is structured i mean we don’t try to make it neat and clean and tie it up with a bow and that’s not what this is about um this is about uh showing the tensions in history um showing the tensions that

16:42 took place in the past but also exposing some of the tensions in the present about how the past should be understood and interpreted um so i think in a very intentional way um we make it a little bit messy for them um i i don’t mean to say that we make it unclear but but we point out that there are some

17:02 matters of history that are up for interpretation um and maybe not all interpretations are created equal um maybe not all can conform as readily to the past as we would like um i don’t think anyone is saying that but i think it’s really important for people to know that when they read a work of history um

17:23 that it comes from a particular author um and and that they bring their perspective to bear and you know maybe sometimes it’s okay for students to walk away from from reading something in our book or from a classroom conversation and maybe raise even more questions uh than answers uh that’s what we hope

17:45 that’s the best that’s why we’re here absolutely absolutely think about things some some of my favorite chapters in life liberty and the pursuit of happiness were the ones that had me you know reaching for for books um on my bookshelves or you know going to the library um to try to dig deeper they piqued my curiosity um they made me ask new questions they

18:07 made me want to learn more right and and if the scholar of your caliber can do that we hope that that we’ll we’ll see some students doing that as well uh looking for more answers as they’re exposed to these new ideas and and reading some of these things maybe for the first time so that that would be great and you know why why are historical

18:29 content the historical thinking skills uh the civic components which we haven’t really talked too much about yet uh why why are those components in the book so important for students especially in in today’s world yeah i mean every once in a while you’ll see a new study released um showing

18:51 how many americans they’re just being failed by the the educations that they’re receiving or not receiving i mean i think one of the great challenges um for america’s high school students is that a number of states you know don’t have uh as robust a history curriculum as perhaps they should

19:12 and you see studies um revealing that you know basic facts of american history are sometimes unknown to large percentages of the population um and and that’s very sad it’s sad that only because we would like to believe that people have a shared understanding of their country’s past um it’s also sad because if you lack

19:33 that basic understanding if you lack an understanding of the constitution and the bill of rights um the the declaration of independence you know the basic principles upon which america was founded and how those principles have animated debates ever since the founding of the united states um you really lack the capacity to sort of in a rich

19:56 and thoughtful way um engage with your fellow citizens um in debates of national importance or even participate um in a historically minded way as a member of your own community history is inspiring i mean how could you not learn about the life of frederick douglass and not come away inspired you know he’s a role model for

20:18 all of us i mean when you think about it frederick douglass before he even owned himself his first possession was was a book of oratory which included speeches by george washington i mean he was inspired by history um and when he claimed his own freedom and when he became an advocate for abolition and for

20:40 liberating others i mean that would not have been possible if if his appreciation of history and the basic principles on which the united states were founded if those principles didn’t inspire him to liberate himself and and ultimately that’s what history does i think it frees us it frees our minds and it allows us

21:00 to promote freedom um in our communities and uh through our own lives as as you know as much as we are mere mortals and you know not frederick douglass’s or thomas jefferson’s or alexander hamilton’s um you know in our own more humble pedestrian ways we too can make a difference right yeah it’s so inspiring to hear you

21:22 you you discuss douglas that way and and and he’s so he’s prominently he’s he’s prominently featured in the book and and so we’re we’re we’re so pleased to be able to bring stories like his uh martin luther king uh the the suffragettes uh and and just so many other inspiring

21:42 stories from the american past to students to inspire them and uh one more question rob if you would be so kind why should teachers and and even college professors or maybe dual enrollment teachers um what the those who teach not only high school but

22:02 also freshman level courses why why do you encourage them to adopt life liberty in the pursuit of happiness well it gives them more freedom first of all i mean you know it is it is calibrated to the ap us history standards um so they could have confidence in that it will be setting their students up for success um but it allows them um to customize

22:24 exactly what they want to deliver to their students um it allows them let’s say that they have a classroom with students of various abilities i mean if they want to give a student an extra challenge there’s you know plenty of that material available for them to pass along um you know there’s the the basic chapter introduction

22:45 in in each section which i think is you know if if you only read those you would have a pretty solid understanding of american history so it’s very customizable um it’s it’s not as linear as a typical us history textbook um and i think it’s kind of appealing to students i mean you have videos embedded

23:07 within it um you know so you do because of this web-based platform have the opportunity um to incorporate multimedia experiences for for the students um so i think it lent itself you know to the traditional classroom environment um and obviously we had no inkling

23:28 that uh coronavirus would be a thing when you started this project three years ago but i think you know for teachers who are thinking about blended environments or even fully remote environments i think that that this lends itself uh you know very well to it and you know i don’t want to sound crass but you know thanks to the bill of rights of institute and all of its donors this is

23:50 free it’s a free resource so this really lightens the burden on school districts and taxpayers across america right yeah they wanted to be available to all students and all teachers in all school districts across the country yeah it’s a great ability we have uh with their generosity rob mcdonald of west point i can’t thank

24:13 you enough for your incredible contributions to life liberty and pursuit of happiness and and thank you for this conversation today tony thanks so much it’s always great to speak with you and it’s always great to work with the bill of rights institute thank you well thank you for watching uh teachers uh students and college professors can

24:33 go to our website at bill of rights institute dot org and can sign up for life liberty and the pursuit of happiness thank you you