How Special Operations Shaped the Civil War with Patrick O’Donnell | BRI Scholar Talks

0:05 For this episode of Scholar Talks the guiding question is how did Special Forces operations affect the outcome of the American Civil War? Our guest, Patrick O’Donnell is the bestselling author of more than a dozen books. He has appeared on a previous Scholar Talk episode on his book, The Indispensables. a great page turner about the Marblehead Regiment,

0:29 that helped to ferry Washington’s Continental Army across the Delaware. His most recent book is the Unvanquished, about special forces operations in the American Civil War. I am Tony Williams, Senior Fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute, and I want to welcome you to another episode of Scholar Talks. and starting a new series on the American Civil War.

0:52 Patrick, I want to thank you very much for joining us. It’s an honor, Tony. Thanks for having me on again. Great, just another great book. A real page turner. Some great narrative nonfiction, compelling historical research, and, really just a great story sort of an untold facet, of the Civil War. You know, we sort of, you know, read a lot about Lincoln,

1:13 and we read a lot about the various battles in Vicksburg and Gettysburg and battle, battle of Bull Run and so forth, all important stuff. But, you know, you really bring to light this new episode, so I’m excited to talk about it. I’m excited to talk about it with you too Great. So so why don’t we start with looking at the formation of these special forces? So can you tell us a little bit about Mosby’s Confederate Rangers

1:36 and the Jessie Scouts on the Union side? Sure. this book is about the Jessie Scouts. That is the through line of the Unvanquished. And from there, we hang off the men, the men that they fought against, that they interacted with. And that would be Mosby’s Rangers,

1:57 some other irregular forces, but also, the Confederates Secret Service, which is really an untold story as well. And the the origin of this, though, is in 1940, 1941, America didn’t have special operations forces. They had what was known as the Coordinator

2:17 of Information or the Office of Strategic Services, and they had to quickly come up to speed and figure out what to do with special operations forces to create them, and they had to create them overnight. But what Bill Donovan did, was he assigned some of his best scholars to look at American history in the period of modern war,

2:38 which begins in the Civil War, is where they really started to look first. And it’s the units that they looked at, which is the story that I tell for the first time in the Unvanquished. And it begins with these incredible Jessie Scouts or Lincoln Special Forces, that was another name that was used for them.

2:58 And their origin begins in 1861 with General John Fremont. And it’s in the Missouri, area where there’s a raging, you know, it’s brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, and they need sort of a regular forces to deal with these irregular forces. And the birth of the Jessie Scouts occurs, and the name

3:21 Jessie Scouts comes from General Fremont’s wife. And, and, you know, one contemporary source said that she was the better man of the two. and she was an extraordinary woman. And it’s no wonder that these men, these scouts admired her.

3:41 And they formed a small unit, about 50 men. And they were they were all, volunteers, highly trained general Fremont was known as the Pathfinder because of his exploration of the American West, his involvement with the War of Mexico and California. But he employed Kit Carson and other scouts very effectively and transferred that to the American Civil War.

4:05 And that’s where the Jessie Scouts are born. Their leader is a guy by the name of, Charles Carpenter, who’s fascinating man, too. Is a braggart. He’s, a good spy and commando in his own right. I mean, he literally infiltrates Fort Donelson to gather crucial intelligence, comes out, even disguises himself as a woman.

4:28 I mean, this is fascinating stuff, but he’s got this this sense of, exaggeration. He claimed that he was with John Brown, escaped in a drainage ditch. I mean, the guy is is remarkable, but, you know, he’s got some a darker side and one of those darker sides. He likes to steal pretty much anything that’s not nailed down.

4:49 And the scouts get a very poor reputation for discipline and, and just their character is in question. And he’s literally captured out of the army. And the scouts kind of go away to some degree, but small element of them remains, and they go with a General Milroy, and it sort of

5:12 goes along with their doing at this stage, though, is they are guiding the army. And what makes them very unique is that these men wear Confederate uniforms. They’re out front. They have to, in order to gain the element of surprise, to kind of go between the lines. They wear the, their enemies uniform.

5:32 And that is a perilous, perilous thing to do because you if you’re caught and you’re considered a spy, you’re executed either by, you know, hanging or, you know, you’re shot. And that’s exactly what happened with many of these men. And this is a story that is very engaging. It’s a narrative history. It’s not some sort of dry retelling of the story

5:53 puts you in the saddle of these men, or the boots of these men as they’re going behind the lines, they’re leading the armies, and the Jessie Scouts are taken over by General Admiral, who’s, quite an extraordinary general in his own way. basically, he’s kind of screws up and he’s given a backwater command in West Virginia, and it’s here

6:15 that the scouts really earn their chops. They are in this, irregular warfare of our 35th state, which, oh, by the way, happens to be a slave state as it enters the union in 1863, which is quite fascinating. But it’s brother against brother as well in West Virginia. And it’s also about guarding the vital supply lines and rail lines.

6:37 And much of the story revolves around raiding the railroads that are there. And Admiral sends his scouts on some very, very perilous missions. But within this story emerges America’s first counterinsurgency group, which is they were also Jessie Scouts. They’re known as Blazer’s Independent Scouts.

6:58 And they go after the irregulars in West Virginia. But this is the JV squad for what they really have to face, and that is John Singleton Mosby, the greatest Partizan commander in American history. And John Singleton Mosby is an extraordinary individual, and he is kind of the anti-hero of the, the Unvanquished,

7:21 five foot seven, 128 pounds, you know, begins his career in the the winter of 1862, going to Jeff Stuart in a mansion called Oakham, which is right outside of Middleburg. You can still visit it. What’s cool about this book is you can visit the places that I write about this book is an a road tour waiting to happen,

7:42 and I’m also, a willing guide for those that want to pay for it. But anyways, that’s another story. Can I sign up for that? Sure! This is, this is amazing stuff. You can visit these places. Oakham is still there. So in the winter of 1862, he leaves Jeff Stuart and says, I want to volunteer.

8:02 I want to create a partizan group in Loudoun County, Prince William County, and disrupt Union supply lines and tie down thousands of federal troops. And Jeff Stuart says fine. You got six guys, including one guy that has a club foot and make it happen. And that’s what they do.

8:23 They’re these, like, completely unarmed, poorly armed guys that then start to harass, Union supply lines. But Mosby is just a brilliant, brilliant, strategist. Totally understands guerrilla warfare. He is creating it as he’s going along. And they, they really they start to tie up

8:43 a tremendous amount of, federal troops. Their numbers grow, volunteers start to show up. But their greatest mission is the mission to capture a, a Union general. And it’s an extraordinary story. Within this story is also

9:04 remarkable. Characters like Mosby, including a guy by the name of Big Yankee Ames, who’s a a union deserter from the fifth New York Calvary that just walks into their lines and says, I want to I want to volunteer to be a partisan. They’re like, well, wait, hold on a second. You know, who are you? They think he’s maybe a potential infiltrator, but they

9:27 they sent him on a mission with another Ranger to find his own horse, and he’s unarmed and he has to infiltrate behind the lines, and he steals a horse from the main Union area, which is Centerville. There’s a huge Calvary Garrison and Fort there. Comes back, and then Mosby decides to use him as

9:48 a way to get through union lines. And it’s only, you know, a couple dozen men that in the middle of the night, in the middle of a snowstorm, in the middle of a rainstorm, they penetrate once again Union lines and they take out, a Union general. And it’s incredible story.

10:09 Absolutely amazing story. And it just begins to to grow from there. And it’s no wonder that the OSS used these men for that’s for their origins and for, for inspiration because there’s so much rich stuff here. What’s old is new. What is occurring to this day

10:31 is irregular warfare is impacting all of our lives. All you have to do is look at the Middle East in the Quds Force in Iran, the Houthis, all of these things have elements of this story. Right And and you’re you’re right. It’s a story that tells itself, but you tell it very, very well Lots of great, details and very, very interesting story.

10:55 so did they have to overcome perhaps a certain amount of skepticism of, of opposition by leaders of the regular army, especially with these 19th century notions of honor and manhood and facing off against your enemy in war? You know, what was the view of these irregulars? Absolutely. This is this. This is the story of irregular forces in American history in general.

11:20 America has a rich story of, of irregular warfare beginning, you know, far before the, the French and Indian War. But there’s always this almost sine curve where they build up something and then they lose it. And they it’s not a learning organization, so to speak. In World War Two, for instance, there was a complete resistance to anything that was irregular.

11:41 They thought it bled off good men to the regular army, to regular forces. This is exactly what was going on in the Civil War as well. They felt that these men would would be better placed with the regular troops that were fighting battles, etc. and anyways, they bled them off. But they they quickly realized that there was some serious value

12:03 to what they were doing. And what this book goes into. Is it the small story that tells this larger story of unconventional warfare during the Civil War Both sides were employing it, especially the South. They felt that regular warfare could change the course of the war and had the south imployed it, especially at the end of the war.

12:28 It’s been proven in the 20th century. 21st century insurgencies that had the support of the population are almost impossible to defeat in the South, with all of its men that were lost, every family that lost a member completely still supported those that were there. And it was an overwhelming percentage of Southerners that would have supported

12:52 an insurgency, which would have made it extremely difficult to defeat. but it’s these men in this book, these Jessie scouts that do defeat it eventually and through their actions at the end of the war, in particular But they’re always there, always overcoming this, this, this stuff. But it’s the Confederate Secret Service.

13:14 And even with some support from General Lee that he encourages them to look towards the Democrat peace movement of the time, which was the Copperhead movement, which is a very much an untold aspect of the Civil War as well. They are the rising movement within the Democratic Party.

13:37 And they wanted peace. They wanted an armistice. And it’s the Confederate Secret Service that that really influences them tremendously. This book isn’t about just ambushing wagon trains and blowing up. You know, bridges and things like that. That’s all cool. It’s high level stuff that we see today. It’s election interference.

13:58 It’s going after the the press, which at the time, I mean, there’s a great line in there. The democracy controls the press That is a very true statement. They, the northern press was Anti – Lincoln almost, almost almost completely.

14:18 And they were they were preaching an anti-war message. The Confederate Secret Service plied them with money to, to write the story of this is a forever war. It’s impossible to win. There needs to be a political solution. to solve this problem, there needs to be a course correction.

14:40 This would be the Confederate platform of the the the, Democratic platform for 1864, which the the Confederate Secret Service in part helps write Because their, their main asset is the leader of the the Copperhead movement. a guy by the name of Volendam,

15:01 and he’s an Ohio congressman that is exiled to Canada. And much of the intrigue in this book takes place in Montreal, where the, you know, mint juleps are served year round in, in this, the most opulent hotel there. They cater to Confederates that are in exile or Confederates

15:25 that have gone over the border or even prisoners of war. And it’s here that many of these covert operations are hatched. And it’s it’s a fascinating story. Right. And, yeah, so many fascinating things. I mean, you describe how these special forces are launching raids against, supply lines against railroads, trains against bridges,

15:49 sneaking through enemy lines at the assumed identities, ambushing the enemy, even kidnapping officers, as you said. Can you describe a few of their tactics and their effects, how they how they went about this. Their tactics were innovated during the war, under pressure.

16:10 And this is especially true with the Confederate Secret Service, which has this obsession with technology and gadgets. And, I love this. It’s kind of all the Hughes Laboratory from James Bond. It’s everything from the coal torpedo, which is a piece of coal that’s been hollowed out to, you know, insert gunpowder

16:33 and then cover it over, and then these things can be hurled into the steam engine of, of a boat or a train. And they disabled, you know, many, union supply lines in this manner. But then there’s also some fairly sophisticated stuff like that I got into, which is the election interference, seeding the press,

16:58 but it’s also in many cases, more tactical, where they’re wearing the enemy’s uniform to infiltrate behind the lines. In the case of the Jessie Scouts, they perform a very vital duty. There’s no radio communication. They are providing communication between armies.

17:19 They are also providing tactical intelligence directly to the commander. And this is incredibly vital and crucial to General Sheridan. And General Sheridan is the the commanding officer that really takes the Jessie Scouts from Averell and crafts them into something that is a strategic asset

17:40 that really fuels his army. This is an untold story of how they, they are able he’s able to to pierce Confederate lines because he knows where the weak points are, thanks to the intelligence that the real time intelligence that his Jessie scouts are providing him, and they are riding into battle with him

18:01 in some cases, or they are far ahead of the army, in enemy uniform, scouting out formations and figure out weak points and also delivering messages to fellow armies to coordinate Right and was there a certain kind of man, certain characteristics,

18:22 that the leaders of these special forces units were generally looking for? These were extraordinary individuals. Anybody that that that Moseby had, they were excellent athletes. In most cases they were crack shots. There were also very intelligent individuals. The Jessie scouts in particular, had to pass off

18:45 as a Confederate, and they were often captured. They had to talk their way out of a situation and convince their captors that they were indeed real thing, and they were so convincing that they could. They were like chameleons. They could change their persona to whatever unit that they were trying to impersonate,

19:06 and they were, in many cases, very highly effective. There were seven Medals of Honor that were awarded to individuals within the Jessie Scouts. But many, many of these men would never return home and including their leader. And that is why this book was an untold story until I wrote it.

19:28 And, you know, as you described this, you’ve sort of dip your toes in the waters a little bit for this question. just thinking about their, their actions, how their intelligence really was crucial to the outcome of several battles. You know, you mentioned Fort Donelson, mentioned in the 1864 election, and several other key battles, political moments.

19:49 How do special Forces operations affect the American Civil War? Number of a number of ways. the, you know, 1864 is really a crucial inflection point. And if you it needs to be looked at and examined in a different manner from

20:11 if you look at it from the perspective of the Confederacy, for instance, at that time, at the beginning of 1864, they actually held out quite a bit of hope, even though in today’s, you know, perspective, it was it’s a different perspective. But things were not going well, with Grant’s offensives at all.

20:33 In fact, it was it was one meat grinder after another. There were, you know, hundreds of thousands of Union deserters. There were hundreds of thousands of casualties. The war was wearing on. It was costing a fortune. and, you know, one of the things that I get into is Jubal Early’s raid in this book.

20:55 And it was led by irregular troops. In fact, Harry Gilmore is one of the Gilmore’s Partisans is one of those individuals. And they do they have a number of special operations associated with that raid. One is to to take out the massive, recapture all the prisoners at Point Lookout in Maryland.

21:18 And also, they go right at Washington, DC, and they nearly capture it because it’s a shell of itself in terms of those that are manning the defenses. One of the one of them is a, a relative in my was in my family with 150th Ohio. And, you know, there were supposed to be in rear guard duty.

21:41 They were so called 100 days men and the farmer from Solon, Ohio, and they were thrown out in front of this massive Confederate army that was bearing down on the Capitol and about to overwhelm it. But this this is one thing after another where Lincoln is convinced that he will lose the election.

22:02 And that looked that if they have taken Washington, for instance, or even just burned it or partially burned it, it would have been a political defeat and everything was going poorly for the union. the burning of Chambersburg is a very much a high watermark. and just things looked so hopeless.

22:23 And it’s the Jessie Scouts that really have a pivotal role in, in changing things. And that is especially true with the Third Battle of Winchester, where they provide crucial intelligence, they’re conduit in providing crucial intelligence that one of the Southern Brigades

22:44 in Jubal Early’s army is being transferred back to Richmond, and it comes through sort of an unlikely source. The scouts are not only, proficient with special operations, but they combine it with intelligence and intelligence gathering, and they make friends with people. And one of the people that they,

23:05 they befriended was an enslaved man by the name of Thomas Laws, who, who’s really one of the great heroes of the American Civil War. I visit his grave and he’s out is outside of Winchester. But Thomas Laws risks his life to deliver a message from the Jessie Scouts and General Sheridan to Rebecca Wright who’s a schoolteacher but is living in a

23:28 in a very much a divided family. Most of her family fights for the South. She’s an abolitionist. And, she tells Thomas Laws through the Scouts that this there’s this crucial intelligence and that changes the course of the battle of the Third Battle Winchester,

23:48 which changes the course of the war, which, along with the Battle of Atlanta, it’s a defining political moment for the Republican Party and or I should say, Lincoln, and his party at the time, which then has, gains tremendous traction. But it goes back and forth.

24:10 And the scouts are also involved in the Battle of Cedar Creek, which is a near disaster for General Sheridan. but he makes his epic and famous ride on his war horse and rallies the troops. And that’s just an amazing story in and of itself, and how that

24:30 they turn everything around there and it turns around the election of 1864. Right yeah. Just so many fascinating little, little stories and nuggets in there. so, you know, a book, maybe a question that maybe outside the purview of the book, per se. but what ties can you make between the special forces

24:52 who are among these first, special forces in in the Civil War and special forces today, which which you’ve written a lot about, this is a book, about individuals that had to innovate and operate on their own and operate with a great deal of independence and, and make things happen.

25:13 I mean, all the books that I’ve written in one way or another about are about individuals that are at the right time, at the right place, that through their actions or their their agency, bend and shape history. And that’s certainly the case with these men. And we see it today how special operations

25:34 and irregular warfare is bending and shaping history. And I think that’s the lesson that America really should, should, should, should garner, especially in today’s, force, is that it’s the individual that’s your most important, your human capital is your most important asset. It’s not the tech, it’s it’s your human beings.

25:55 And and, in fostering them, in leadership, there’s incredible leadership that is displayed in this book from General Sheridan on down to, you know, in some cases, sergeants or privates that that have to do extraordinary things. Right. Well, well, that’s a great lesson for, for all of us, to leave us with.

26:17 so, Patrick, I want to thank you very much for joining us, and congratulations on your really very highly readable, well-researched, magnificent new book, the Unvanquished. Thank you. Tony, it was a pleasure and and honor today. Thanks. And thank you all for joining us on this episode of Scholar Talks. Please check out the other interviews in our new American Civil War series on our channel.

26:41 Thank you.