Federalism and the Relationship between the National Government and States with Mark Rozell

0:00 state governments they’re responsible for civil law most criminal law primarily for public education Business and Professional Licensing all variety of ways in which state governments have autonomy in our system that I think are extremely important for people to understand as they study in

0:20 this field you know and keep in mind the vast differences that exist across this country in public policies as a result [Music] hi this is Tony Williams Senior fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute and we are pleased to bring you another episode of scholar talks for this episode we’re

0:42 honored to have on scholar Mark Rozelle who’s going to discuss federalism for our series topics in government and civics Now The Guiding question for this episode is what is the significance of the principle of federalism to American constitutional government and Dr Mark Roselle is the dean of the

1:03 Shar School of policy and government George Mason University he’s the author and editor of more than two dozen books including the excellent federalism a very short introduction and uh please check out our previous scholar talk that we did together on Presidential Power in the American

1:24 presidency series Mark I want to thank you for joining me thank you Tony glad to be here yeah thanks you know before we got started I was just talking about you know just what a remarkable uh book this is I I just think it’s a remarkable achievement because it’s part of the Oxford very short introductions and you know you provide with your co-author uh an excellent and scholarly a thoughtful

1:48 examination of federalism but in such an accessible readable way and and the book’s only just a tad over 100 pages I mean uh it’s really aimed at teacher students but also Scholars and and citizens as well it’s really a great book I really endorse it well thank you I appreciate that it was a lot of fun to write the book too I really enjoyed the

2:09 experience because I’ve written enough academic tomes that are not 100 pages long uh this one of course I was able to co-write about a topic that I’m very interested in that I believe is extremely important for people to understand about the operation of the US governmental system but do so in a way in which I’m relieved of the necessity

2:31 of numerous citations and statistical details and the like and make it more approachable for people to understand the topic right well as a happy reader I can tell you you achieved that and and you’re right it is an important topic and and that’s what we’re talking about now Topics in in American government and Civics and and I’d love for you to just

2:53 introduce this topic by maybe defining federalism and explaining how this principle this constitutional principle Works practically in our system right so federalism if we Define it is the political system in which the sub-national governmental units have a degree of autonomy and authority and

3:15 where there’s some power sharing between the Nash national government and the sub-national units now Federalism is relatively rare in the world most of the world’s governments are unitary in nature that is where the national government has predominant Authority and may delegate some responsibility to the sub-national units

3:35 so whereas a unitary system says its virtue is equal treatment of citizens regardless of where they live in the country the virtue of a federalism system is that it recognizes different regions have distinctive needs distinctive values policy preferences and it allows those to flourish in those different

3:56 areas but I should point out even among governments that have federalism systems they’re not All the Same by far each one is unique in in a variety of ways and also there’s a difference between federalism and theory and federalism in practice so for example we list

4:18 countries that have federalism systems well Venezuela is listed there constitutionally Venezuela says that sub-national units um have a great deal of independent authority to act on their own but the reality is they really can’t do anything without the consent of the national

4:38 government and there’s a great deal of variants there for it in the extent to which sub-national units are empowered in federalism systems I think what is quite unique about the U.S federalism system and important for everyone to understand is the extent to which sub-national units have a great deal of independent

5:01 Authority and yet uh and here I’m going to preach a little bit so much of the focus in our study of American government and politics is on the national political scene as though we have a centralized system and a presidency centered system and I understand the appeal of the great

5:23 National political drama that happens in Washington D.C but the construct of our governmental system is one in which there is a division of authority and sharing of authority among different levels of government and where most of the most important things that happen in our daily lives are affected by the actions of our state and local governments and

5:46 not what’s happening necessarily in Washington D.C so I understand the appeal of studying the national political scene over the local for those who like to study U.S government and politics and also it’s very complicated to study federalism in a way because

6:06 state and local governments all do things so differently from each other so it’s difficult to have a unified narrative about what state governments do and local governments do state governments they’re responsible for civil law most criminal law primarily for public education Business and Professional Licensing all variety of

6:27 ways in which state governments have autonomy in our system that I think are extremely important for people to understand as they study in this field you know and keep in mind the vast differences that exist across this country in public policies as a result so you can purchase marijuana in

6:48 Colorado and consume it if you want but don’t cross the boundary into Kansas because you’re breaking the law there so we can talk about some of those differences how the federalism system supports and encourages these kinds of differences state by state believe me you can preach the uh the virtues of federalism all day long here so and your

7:11 comparative perspective is really important I like to bring the conversation back to the American system and our Founders you know what was the the founding understanding of federalism how does the idea take shape because you know I think the answer is maybe not as as clear-cut as we might think right well I I would say it goes back to the period of British colonial rule so as

7:33 part of the British Empire the US colonies were too far removed from the British Parliament to be able to participate in decision making on local matters of Interest so the British system therefore allowed substantial autonomy to the American colonies the self-governed in a variety of areas of local governance and the tradition of local control therefore had its roots in

7:56 the colonial era the American colonies they had their own Charters their own taxes printed their own currencies they had their own criminal laws courts police jails firefighters and so on so the development of a federal system was very much an outgrowth of this circumstance and as we became a new nation we already had the experience of

8:16 governing relationships between the colonies the colonial towns and the British central government which made the transition to a system of intergovernmental relations and the new government quite natural and after achieving independence from Great Britain we established a Confederate style system in which the subunits had primary Authority in most

8:37 areas of policy and the national government was very weak that lasted for only about eight years leading to our constitutional convention where a major issue the major issue really was what is the proper relationship between a national government and its sub-national units now opponents of the proposed Constitution including the

8:57 namesake of my university is said that they feared a too strong central government would emerge out of this proposed Constitution but James Madison and the Federalists made it clear that the Federal Constitution limited the authority of the national government to certain core functions but the remaining Powers all still resided with the states

9:18 so for the founding generation the understanding was that the functions of the national government essentially were limited and that the state should still retain a great deal of independent power and authority of course that’s changed a great deal over time but uh that very

9:40 much explains the origin of our system and the intention of our founders right great and that’s a perfect segment segue to my next question this founding dialogue this deliberation discussion over this proper balance between the the national government and and the states uh it’s it’s changed over time it’s this dialogue has continued maybe it’ll never

10:02 end uh I don’t know but but in in a nutshell how how has it changed over the course of American History it’s changed a great deal some of it by constitutional design the necessary and proper clause sometimes called the elastic clause charge the national government with spending money to promote the common defense and the general welfare of the nation so the

10:23 vagueness of this Clause of the Constitution did give leeway over time to the federal power to expand uh Federal Court decisions over time have vastly expanded the definition of what constitutes interstate commerce so Court decisions have granted to Congress the authority to regulate local commercial activity that has what they

10:45 call the close and substantial relationship to interstate commerce Interstate activity that has merely Financial consequences even if the original purpose of the activity was not Financial falls under interstate commerce and thus congress’s Authority uh the Bill of Rights applied only to

11:06 the acts of the federal government but then of course that changed empowering National judicial authority over the actions of state and local governments um 20th century Court interpretations of the equal protection Clause of the 14th Amendment um constituted I think a major shift in our constitutional relationship our

11:27 understanding of the relationship between the federal government and the states so it allowed for example the Supreme Court of the United States to rule that same-sex couples have a right to marriage whereas Defenders of the original concept of federalism argue that well it’s the states that control civil law and in referenda voters in

11:49 many states affirm their support for what they call traditional marriage so this debate continues to rage on in a variety of policy areas that we’re very familiar with today and then finally the federal government uses Financial incentives and threats to redirect State policy in areas where the states have complete Authority

12:10 so leaving aside the whole issue of whether these were good public policies or not it was Federal threats to withdraw federal funds to states that resulted in various times a nationalized speed limit requirements to wear seat belts and Automobiles a nationalized 18 years legal drinking age

12:30 nationalized educational achievement standards the threat of the loss of federal funding to the states is really serious and that gives the federal government a great deal of control in effect in areas where well yes the Supreme Court says the states have the right to say no and we won’t take the federal funding but try defending that

12:52 to your voters uh in your state that you turned away free money right from the as they as they call it from the federal government I I don’t want to drive 55 but I do want nice roads that’s right 55 is ridiculous so can you give a you’ve given some already but maybe you give it uh some a few

13:13 additional practical examples of how the principle of federalism continues to shape the the debates surrounding today’s contentious issues I can think of several just in the in the past year or two but you know it really continues to shape how we think about politics here or maybe it doesn’t shape it and it should so can you give a few examples

13:34 yeah sure um well let’s take environmental regulatory Authority right um the federal government sets National mandates or requirements on the states but States and localities are allowed to do more than the national standards so California for example uh initiates policy that creates much stricter auto

13:56 emissions uh controls than the National Standard which led many auto manufacturers to say we’re just going to adopt the California standard for the whole country rather than make the same automobile two different ways for the American Market uh the here the action of one state affected the price of

14:17 vehicles for consumers throughout the rest of the country a choice that they did not make by the way um but would it violate the principle of federalism to tell a state California in this case it cannot do that because under the principles of federalism states are allowed to exceed Federal standards and today we have another case where California is mandated that all

14:39 vehicles sold there by year 2035 have to be either electric or hybrid vehicles and many other state leaders are now protesting that this is also going to affect the sale and distribution of vehicles in the rest of the United States potentially gun policy another example advocates for

14:59 strict gun control they want to have National uniform laws for strict gun control opponents say no the states should retain authority to make laws that best suit their own circumstances and their own policy preferences but then the state policies all differ significantly from each other so I teach

15:23 at a university and I find this fascinating 16 States say you cannot carry concealed weapons on a college campus 10 states say you can do that all the rest of the states say colleges can make the policy for themselves so differences All Over America well and and all this these

15:44 are fascinating examples it just shows you that federalism and its issues are really just are all around us and and as you said earlier let’s come back to maybe that point how does this allow for a great deal of diversity but then also some disparities maybe inequalities around the country and and I guess depending upon the issue

16:05 maybe you’d see it as an advantage or or a good thing or or a disadvantage or a bad thing kind of depending on the issue right so what I like to say is what works in Texas won’t work in New York and that’s okay uh and that’s one of the virtues of our federalism system that it allows the law to reflect the common

16:26 social and communal values of people where they happen to live and Texas may be able to solve a similar policy problem as exists in New York in a completely different way that better suits its own people and their own policy preferences about how to solve problems this is a very large and diverse country and to have for example a a unitary

16:51 system of civil law or criminal law right in areas of crimes against people or crimes against property which belongs to the states it would never work here it would never work in this country because of the enormous variety that exists throughout so we tend to say what’s good about Federalism is that it

17:11 allows this discretion for local communities and states to be able to try to solve their problems in the ways that they believe are best for themselves and to recognize that there are significant differences across this country um and that it would just simply never work to have a nationalized response to

17:32 a number of issues that states and localities routinely deal with now coming up here uh why is the principle of federalism so important for understanding American government yeah that’s the that’s the question you really can’t understand the nature and operations of the US governmental system without understanding federalism I

17:55 implore those who teach and research and write about American government politics to pay very close attention to this I understand the great appeal of focusing on the national political drama but most of the important things that happen in government that affect our daily lives are happening at the state and local levels I consider federalism the very

18:18 Foundation of our democratic system de tocqueville was right when he observed that federalism gives citizens a greater role in local Affairs that would ever be allowed by a unitary system a kind of ownership in a sense that citizens have a stake in their own communities but it also helps the national government he

18:38 said focus on its real priorities and not get involved in what he called secondary Affairs or lower level Administration so the separation between national state and local allows for the so-called secondary or lower level Administration to happen where they should happen and the national government to focus on uh the big

19:00 Collective responsibilities that not only a national government is capable of taking care of you know and also in a very large and diverse Republic as I said a unitary system of civil law criminal law uh would would just never work so I I just think this is really the essence of understanding our political system in

19:22 the United States and it doesn’t get all the attention that it really deserves right yeah and you’re absolutely right the critically important uh topic uh and I want to thank you very much Mark Roselle for joining us and for explaining the principle of federalism thank you Tony my pleasure and thank you all for joining us on this episode of scholar talks please check out our other

19:44 interviews in the series on Topics in government and Civics and also please check out our other series American the American presidency series and the Cold War and the presidency series on our Channel