Anna Julia Cooper with Anika Prather | Black Intellectuals Series #5

0:00 and she would um engage in discussions with her students that may it was not just about um memorizing and regurgitating to pass a test but she made these students think she made these students see their com their their equal humanity this was really important because like i said she was a

0:21 slave and her students were also most likely oftentimes former slaves of course until she got older um and but what she was doing was taking them on a journey that was similar to hers where she was using the text for them to learn about who they were as human beings [Music]

0:42 hi this is tony williams senior fellow at bri and we are pleased to bring you another episode of scholar talks and this one is on the series we’re running on black intellectuals and the african-american experience and we’re honored to have scholar anika pratter who’s going to discuss early 20th century black educator

1:02 anna julia cooper the guiding question for this series is what contributions did this person make to understanding the black experience in america and dr anika prather is dedicated to teaching the classics and is the founder of the living water school in maryland as taught at howard university and is

1:22 currently teaching at messiah messiah university she is the author of living in the constellation of the canon the lived experiences of african-american students reading great books literature anika thank you for joining us thank you for having me yeah you know one of the reasons why i’m so excited to be talking about anna julia cooper is you know i

1:44 knew a little bit about her but to prepare for the interview i i read a lot about her and uh and and by her and she’s just an incredible figure a very very interesting figure and and really important uh and i’m glad that uh we we agreed to talk about her yes yes that’s great to talk about yeah great uh so

2:06 in my research i i found that she cooper had a lot to say about first principles and human nature you know i i think she really believed that people of all races and sexes are born equal they have reason and also very importantly human dignity and and that we can only fulfill those

2:29 ideals and aspirations of american democracy when we recognize that common humanity yeah your rights that we have it am i on the right track can you tell us about cooper yes and i mean that actually is what makes her very unique in comparison to some of the other activists of her time um she was very truthful about the black

2:50 experience but all of her arguments and essays were headed towards a path of racial healing and unity like she wanted to bring american citizens together she was also very proud of being an american um there’s a quote that she says um she said i know something along the lines of um

3:10 i cannot help but um have so much hope for my country and to be a woman in the late 1800s probably yeah it’s probably late 1800s when she made that that statement early 1900s at the latest um to say it during that time just out of slavery had been enslaved all her life until she was 10.

3:31 i’m proud it’s seen so many things she is the daughter of the master um who had nothing to do with her she had every reason to be very jaded in her thinking but in her writings you see a real love for her country while at the same time being able to speak out in truth about her experience and the changes she’d like to see i find her to be a good

3:53 example for me because it’s very easy to fall into a pattern of anger or bitterness or you know and and coming from that place but when i read her essays i find an example for speaking on things but at the same time headed towards a space of um loving your country and wanting what’s

4:14 best for it and hoping for the best for your country that’s really incredible right to have that sense of hope even though she’s suffering under the double burdens really of both segregation as a black woman but also as a woman as well so um very very interesting and she was an accomplished and very well-educated high school teacher and

4:35 also college professor eventually got her phd yeah at traditionally what we would call traditionally black institutions and she dedicated her life to education for black people including black women yes and so what was the purpose and importance of education not only for for black people but then broadly for for all humans yeah i think

4:56 she looked at it as a way to build bridges with each other right um and she was always doing things to cross those color lines while the same time staying true to her community um like if you were to compare her to booker t washington who was also a great educator their language is very different booker t washington although

5:18 we respect him we respect the work that he’s done we respect the fact that he came up from slavery he is a good example in that that regard his language is one of just settle like accept your place in american society eventually it’ll take care of your itself so just accept your place and try to get along and julia cooper felt like no we’re going to push those boundaries we’re

5:38 going to push the color line we’re going to push the gender line i’m going to tell you the truth about what what it’s like here why it’s not right but um i am going just to respect the space that i call home now another way that she um sought to kind of cross those color lines she was like i said she was i feel like a real strong

6:00 advocate for building that bridge across the color line and gender lines um and one example you see in that too is um she got her phd um she stepped she went to one hbcu which was saint augustine but then she got her bachelor’s and master’s she finished up her college work and got her master’s at oberlin

6:21 then she got her phd at the salvon in france and so you see that pattern she’s constantly she got it and then she would get these things and go right back to serving her community and then showing how to build a bridge from her community to everyone else and so as you see that constant back and

6:41 forth and she also mastered that in her love of the canon so in most of her essays and speeches that you read she makes numerous references to the works of the canon sometimes she’s you know quoting tocoville or you know whoever and so she is constantly engaged in the great

7:02 conversation with these authors and she’s an example of it she does it so beautifully so clearly almost as if she’s saying to the reader to her students whoever would listen or read watch me now you follow what i’m doing and how do i know that’s her thinking because there’s a quote that she says no one but the black woman can say when and

7:23 where i enter right well feminists typically take that part only and leave it there only but the only black woman can say when and where i enter but there’s more to that quote it continues no one but the black woman can say when and where i enter and wherever i go i’m kind of you know summarizing and wherever i go the whole

7:45 negro race enters with me if you don’t say that last part becomes a very self-centered you know you no one’s going to tell me what to do i’m all about my progress but that’s not what that quote means it was about it wasn’t just about women’s rights it was about human rights and she’s saying you’re not basically you’re not gonna stop me i’m gonna pave

8:05 this way for everyone who comes after me and what is that path that she’s trying to pave that path that bridges all americans to come together it brings them together and she believed that that work could be done um through classical education she was very distraught when she saw booker t washington’s philosophy of more

8:26 industrial education um booker t washington makes a quote basically saying you know it’s a waste of time for anyone to study greek and latin to read these texts that you don’t have a skill um anna julia cooper felt skills were necessary but she also felt all of us should have this exposure to classical learning because it provides a way for us to dialogue with each other it is a common

8:48 language that we can share with each other because it it reveals the common human experience most people in early america were educated classically so she felt it was a way of connecting all of us not just accepting your place not just accepting your place behind the veil as du bois calls the veil i sometimes think he needs a color line but she says we can break through

9:10 that and and you can’t stop me and i’m bringing the whole race with me not to overthrow you not to hurt you not to tear down america but we’re coming because we’re equal to you and we’re going to work with you to make this country a better place and that’s just a great segue to my next question and and by the way is it okay

9:31 to feel inspired as you’re talking she’s very inspirational i i love it [Music] so so cooper discussed the importance of of educational and economic opportunities as well specifically for for black women who as we talked about suffered under that double burden and so what what role

9:51 you alluded to with your quote but but what role did black women play in improving the lives of all african americans and also how could they help regenerate the larger american culture and politics broadly you know i i i keep referring to the kind of misunderstanding feminists have

10:14 with anna julia cooper and it’s not because i have anything against feminists that’s not well i don’t want anybody to misunderstand i just feel like she’s being misrepresented or misappropriated um and her she was very interesting because she was also a very traditional woman she she saw black woman all women

10:36 because sometimes she would go back and forth between talking as if she was talking to all women but that which would include black women and then sometimes she would go and say and i’m talking to you sister you know so she was so and the way she saw women were were to be the like the nurturers of society she saw us as being the keepers the

10:58 cultivators the nurturers of society we’re the ones who kind of hold the fort down and keep everyone together and keep everyone inspired and nurtured you know in our hearts and our bodies caring for society and um she talks about how a society is made up of homes

11:20 and homes are made up of families and at the center of that is the woman the atmosphere of homes is no rarer and purer and sweeter than are the mothers in those homes a race is but a total of families the nation is the aggregate of its homes

11:41 as the whole is some of all its parts so the character of the parts will determine the characteristics of the whole these are all axioms and so evident that it seems gratuitous to a market and yet unless i am greatly mistaken most of the unsatisfaction from our past results

12:01 past results arises from just such a radical and powerful error powerful palpable error as much almost on our own part as on that of our benevolent white friends so that again expresses her role in family it’s it’s not that you don’t do careers but it’s that you never forget your place as that center of the home so

12:22 that’s that’s her um thoughts on women now this is interesting for a woman who was she was a widow she never remarried she was a widow by like 21 never had children of her own um and she um but she still saw the value of woman in the home caring for the home caring

12:43 for her children caring for her husband if you’re married um and then she says those pods of families are what make up the larger society they’re the ones at home nurturing the child helping that child become what they’re called to be releasing that child into society she places a great emphasis on that it’s not

13:04 just about being the career woman at the same time she felt that if you are a career woman you can still fulfill that role wherever you are and we see her live that out because even though she was not married and had no children of her own she used her home as a nurturing place i mean people were allowed to live there

13:24 they were too poor and then she would educate them if they were illiterate she used her home as like almost a boarding school when a college um the the the freiling housing university which was a which is like our first example of a community college she was the president of that college it was

13:46 meant to educate older blacks who were still illiterate you know still fresh out of slavery and they would get educated classically but also learn a trade when they came on financial hard times at the time she had this beautiful home in washington dc she ran the school out of her home and even wheeled her home to the

14:06 university so what she felt was i’m a career woman of making good money in all of my um adventures and i’m going to use this to continue to nurture my community the people in my community which will in turn bless others freely house and university is not even named after a black person is named after a senator who um tried to

14:28 stop andrew johnson from ending reconstruction and so that university is named after him a white man and here she is working for this university named after him she very much believed in this partnership between the black community and the white community and she felt white women i mean black women their role was to help nurture that relationship to

14:50 nurture her their own people nurture that bridge between the two do their part to serve alongside her white uh co-citizens of the country and so she saw them just definitely as just kind of this um nurturer of human society and that even if you do have a career outside of your home it is used to come back and pour

15:12 into your own community and ultimately pour into all of society all right you know we talked about civic virtue a lot at bri and it seems like she not only believed that society was knit together by these civic virtues and and citizens practicing civic virtues but she often practiced them herself as she mentioned yeah she even opened up her home to foster children i think

15:34 at least 10 she at least raised at least 10 children at some point and these children she would educate them classically they’d go to college and then she’d give them a job in whatever school she was a principal of and they became teachers and they would carry on her vision for education she was just really amazing she’s becoming more

15:54 remarkable as this this interview unfolds i i love it um so so how did cooper um tie individual development of intellect and character in education to the common purpose right that common purpose of citizenship and and working together to establish a just and and civil society and and good

16:16 relations among all i really think she i mean her biggest tool was classical education that was her mode um she taught a lot of her classes in this kind of socratic dialogue um where her students were exploring especially the ancient texts most of her classes were taught in latin

16:37 and she would um engage in discussions with her students that may it was not just about memorizing and regurgitating to pass a test but she made these students think she made these students see their com their their equal humanity this was really important because like i said she was a

16:58 slave and her students were also most likely oftentimes former slaves of course until she got older um and but what she was doing was taking them on a journey that was similar to hers where she was using the text for them to learn about who they were as human beings and then helping them see how can i say oh there’s a quote i wish i could find

17:20 it um when she talks about this is the purpose of education to train up them to see how they could serve in their own in the country and um and that is the whole duty of man um to serve god and to serve their fellow man and then she would use the reading and discussion of the classic

17:41 text to illuminate that for them so what happened as a result most of her students that she had would graduate from high school and go into some of the top schools in the nations oftentimes they would be the first black student in whatever university and they would come out and serve society it was she almost saw

18:03 herself as like it was like almost this machine of citizens she was constantly you doing the work to create citizens now and she’s also really important because she’s very different from booker t well i’m kind of glancing at to find this quote but um she was very different from booker t washington because she’s doing this though without teaching them to feel subservient

18:25 without teaching them to forget their heritage and without teaching them to be um to assimilate assimilation is not the goal yes the goal is integration which means i’m bringing who i am my culture my narrative into the american narrative i’m not hiding it but i’m showing you how this narrative

18:45 can support the work of the country and that is that’s the kind of education that she provided now this quote is kind of long but i really want to read that i want to read it i couldn’t find a part to leave out so you can see the full picture and she goes the negro has had manual education throughout his experience as a slave that is her explaining

19:07 why booker t washington’s thinking about industrial education may not be the answer she’s so again she says the negro has had manual education throughout his experience as a slave for 250 years he was practically the only laborer in the american market his training was whatever his teachers decreed it should be

19:27 his skill represented represented the best teaching of the section in which he found himself if he did not reckon a knowledge of machinery among his accomplishments it must be admitted that machinery was very totally introduced into the southland but his methods as a farmer as a mechanic as a nurse as a domestic were the result of the best teaching the

19:48 peculiar entertain institution of slavery afforded what was the lack what is the need today is it not just the power to think the power to will the power to appreciate true relation which have been enumerated as the universal aim of education

20:08 the old education made him a hand solely and simply it deliberately sought to suppress or ignore his soul we must whatever else we do insist on those studies which by the consensus of educators are calculated to train our people to think

20:29 which will give him the power of appreciation and make them righteous in a word we are building men not chemists or farmers or cooks or soldiers but men and women ready to serve the body politic and whatever evocation their talent is

20:50 needed so that and she says that is fundamental that quote is everything i mean and that one quote see she was she was alive and functioning and being an activist for education at the time that booker t washington’s popularity was rising and that quote basically dispelled the

21:11 myth of why don’t we just focus on industrial education that would not only keep black people for being elevated and it’s not that we have the goal of making them elevated above other races but just elevated out of the low place they were in and so um so she’s saying we don’t need to just

21:32 trade they already have training most of them can do a skill that’s what they did in slaves but they were not taught to think for themselves everyone was making the decision for them they weren’t taught in what she said to serve the body politic they weren’t taught to contribute to american society in the political arena they weren’t taught to have a seat at the table where discussions were

21:53 happening where decisions were being made and so she’s saying the education we give our people should be preparing them for that type of life in america and she also talks about it should also help to make them righteous it should build up their moral standing we’ve come it feels a lot of times that we’ve gotten very far from that vision

22:14 it’s about doing the tests filling in the blanks and just passing the scores and the character of children is not developing the mind the ability to think critically is not developing and the ability to see where we all fit in this big giant human story it’s not happening anymore and and

22:35 anna julia cooper even though she’s long gone i wish she was alive gosh i believe to read her again is to call us back to those former things but by the way are there particular uh essays or books that the students or viewers should shouldn’t really read by cooper i would get um

22:56 this book called the voice of anna julia cooper it’s put together by charles limert and esme bond um you can get on amazon and it includes her book a voice from the south as well as other letters poems essays speeches and a

23:16 lovely biography on her it’s i mean mine is falling apart it’s such a an important resource to knowing her this is really important because she was a very private woman and it’s really hard to know her but if you read this you will have a strong sense of what her journey has been what her philosophy was what her thinking was

23:39 great anika final question how does cooper advocate specifically the best path on on how blacks are going to confront racial prejudice and white supremacy uh and what’s the best path forward for for struggling and achieving equal rights and dignity respect and justice in

24:01 american society there are two parts to this answer um i believe she would still want us to keep having the dialogue we’re truly telling our experiences our narrative as she demonstrates for us in her writing she never holds back words in expressing what her

24:22 experience is and how things are still unfair we need to have those discussions then she also doesn’t feel we should wait around for someone to change our circumstance we have to go after our goals for herself there was a she has this um thing that she did where she would call the first step the second step she wrote

24:44 these goals and on this step she would the final step was her getting her phd she wrote an essay on it or a poem i think called the final step it was right after she got her phd i’m here i’m sharing that as an example because she said on the one hand yes you’re going to hold our leaders

25:04 accountable to making sure they’re holding up to the promises of the constitution but they move kind of slow and a little resistant so don’t just sit around being angry about their slowness to fix that you have to aggressively pursue your goals aggressively push through those boundaries those cut that color line to

25:26 achieve equality to achieve all of your goals and that is what she wants us to learn but not to do one without the other and then finally all of that is in service to our people and to humanity all right nikki i want to thank you for joining us and sharing your insights into this remarkable figure of anna

25:47 julia cooper and thank you all for joining us uh on this episode of scholar talks please check out our next installments of black intellectuals and the african-american experience as well as our previous series on the presidency in the cold war and our upcoming series on pivotal battles in american history thank you thank you

26:13 you