Abraham Lincoln’s Greatest Speeches with Diana Schaub | BRI Scholar Talks

0:01 [Music] hi this is tony williams senior fellow at the bill of rights institute and we are pleased to bring you another episode of scholar talks for this episode we’re honored to have scholar dianna schaub who is going to discuss her new book his greatest speeches how lincoln moved the nation now the guiding question for this

0:21 episode is how do how does lincoln speeches represent his principled statesmanship and and how can they help us think about american purpose and identity by way of introduction dr diana schaab is a professor of political science at loyola university maryland and is a

0:42 visiting scholar at the american enterprise institute she writes extensively on the on american political thought especially of abraham lincoln frederick douglass and african-american political thought she is the co-editor with amy and leon cass of an excellent collection of documents

1:02 called what so proudly we hail the american sold in story speech and song diana i want to thank you very much for joining us i’m delighted to be here tony great you know i i really love your new book his greatest speeches um and it is a really remarkable brief book

1:22 with a really thoughtful and and smoothly written but by the way um on on three of lincoln’s speeches but but what i love about the book so much is that you know you really point us towards and maybe lincoln does as well your subject points is towards that sort of larger civic purpose right it’s a

1:43 great civics lesson i think uh so so really a remarkable book and uh you know my first question uh so how did lincoln’s speeches represent his principal statesmanship and and what do they teach us about american purpose and identity sort of looking at our guiding question here

2:04 yeah i i like your use of the word uh statesmanship i think it is the place to begin with lincoln to be a statesman in the highest sense you have to have a good purpose in view and then you have to have that special knack of choosing well the means to that purpose so statesmen are individuals who are

2:25 both principled and prudent and prudent in the classical sense of possessing practical wisdom and lincoln i believe had both of those qualities his principles of course were the self-evident truths stated in the declaration of independence as he said when he visited independence hall in philadelphia on his way to assume the presidency

2:47 quote i have never had a feeling politically that did not spring from the sentiments embodied in the declaration of independence so lincoln then used speech to try to bring americans back to those founding principles that project of restoration required more than simply repeating or in toning

3:08 the founding principles i required a politically prudential type of speech a speech that was aware of the extent to which americans had forgotten and in some cases actually repudiated the founding principles so i think that lincoln’s speeches are masterfully crafted to address specific audiences and to overcome the obstacles

3:32 to persuasion that their mindset had erected in other words lincoln’s speeches were always educative in character and i think it can actually be hard for us today to understand the political speech of the past we tend to think of speech as self-expression but

3:54 properly political speech is not about self-expression uh it aims at persuasion the persuasion of equals whom one treats as capable of reasoned discourse so i i think maybe one thing that you can learn from studying lincoln is that the american purpose is somehow both very fragile

4:14 and uh robust at the same time in other words it’s easy to lose our moral compass uh it’s easy to go awry uh as americans in so many eras have uh and yet the uh the principles themselves are timeless uh they’re capable of ever fresh renewal and rededication

4:34 excellent excellent uh and and looking at uh one of the first speeches uh that you discuss in the book uh lincoln promotes uh the constitutional rule of law uh reason over passion and civic virtue in the young men’s lyceum address why does he do this and and why might it

4:55 be important for us today to think about these things yeah well the the three things that you named there uh constitutionalism uh the primacy of reason and citizen virtue uh those are the essential components or pillars of self-government lincoln understood constitutionalism to be the frame within which we live out our dedication

5:17 to the principles of the declaration there’s a well-known fragment of writing from lincoln in which he drew upon the biblical image of the apple of gold set within the frame of silver he explained what he meant by the metaphor the golden apple was the declaration’s

5:38 assertion of liberty to all and then the picture or the frame around it is the constitution and union in other words the institutional structure and in that 1838 lyceum address lincoln gave a diagnosis of the perils to which popular government is prone

5:58 that early speech of his is about particular dangers that america was facing in the late 1830s um he looked around himself and he said uh we’re having these outbreaks of mob rule mob rule was becoming pervasive throughout the land there was a breakdown in the rule of law as citizens decided that they could just

6:19 take a shortcut to justice uh through vigilantism uh vigilante action uh lincoln believed that the inevitable result of that growing disregard for the rule of law would be increasing alienation alienation from our democratic form of government so you know to use language that we use a

6:40 lot today when we talk about populism lincoln doesn’t use that word but it’s in a way what he’s talking about and you could say that populism is a threat to popular government meaning by popular government a government based on the will of the people as expressed through the orderly mechanisms of a constitution so lincoln saw that mob rule causes

7:02 citizens to begin to doubt the very possibility of self-government and in consequence to become open to the overthrow of our regime in other words citizens would give up on self-government they would turn to a strong man or a tyrant or a demagogue who could promise security so in the lysim address the solution

7:23 that lincoln forwards is absolute law-abidingness a kind of law-abidingness that would flow from reverence for the constitution and laws in other words lincoln realizes that our ability to perpetuate our form of government depends on the character of the people the solidity of our

7:45 institutions no matter how well constructed they are depends on a non-institutional source self-government in the collective depends on self-governing individuals and so that’s why lincoln stresses the need not only for reverence for the law but for the rule of reason over passion

8:08 in the human soul the lyceum address is about lincoln’s own time and the dangers that he saw in his day but it is also an analysis of the lasting problem the purdueing problem of the human passions uh and the way in which destructive passions like hatred

8:29 and revenge and inordinate ambition uh the way in which those passions can threaten the experiment in self-government so it’s uh it’s uh definitely a timeless message uh one gets from the lyceum address great uh and and maybe uh uh now and address the second speech and address

8:49 people are maybe a little more familiar with the gettysburg address how do the principles of the declaration uh play such a pivotal role how do they animate uh the gettysburg address uh and why are those principles still important yeah um it’s actually kind of interesting that the declaration of independence does not loom very large in lincoln’s early

9:10 speeches um you know that’s the lyceum speech from the late 1830s or the speeches that he gave in the 1840s um at that point i think he believed that the nation could get back on track by a return to constitutionalism and so that is what he’s pressing for in the lyceum address now i don’t think that

9:30 lincoln ever abandoned his fidelity to the constitution i think he remains a committed dedicated constitutionalist but by the 1850s uh it’s clear that not only was the frame of the regime under threat but so too was the apple of gold in the center and so you see in the 1850s he has these

9:51 confrontations with stephen douglas with roger tawney chief justice of the supreme court with the southern followers of john c calhoun all of those figures and the movements that they represented all of them were in various ways reinterpreting producing uh denying the

10:12 founding principles and so in the 1850s lincoln finds it imperative to return to the declaration and in speech after speech he expounds the self-evident truths set forth in the declaration uh he makes clear what those truths mean for the issue of slavery

10:36 now we do have to note lincoln’s speeches of the 1850s were not sufficient to bring all americans to the point of once again holding to those truths however they were sufficient to get him elected to the presidency in 1860 and thereby to trigger the attempted secession of those who no

10:57 longer held to those truths so that brings us to the civil war and the gettysburg address which i read as lincoln’s culminating reflection on the declaration uh i think uh we always need to remember that the gettysburg address was a war speech it was a speech designed to rally the loyal portion of

11:20 the nation to resist the attempt to destroy and break up the republic lincoln presents his audience with an account of why they are fighting and what they are fighting for he does that by taking americans back to 1776 or as he puts it famously puts it four score and seven years ago

11:42 in that remarkable 30-word opening sentence of the gettysburg address lincoln reminds his listeners of what the nation is he defines the nation uh ours is a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal and it is that nation

12:03 and any nation so conceived and so dedicated that is being tested by the civil war once again as in the lyceum address lincoln’s answer to the problematic maintenance of our form of government rests with the people they must be not only devoted to the

12:25 cause of saving the union but they must translate that devotion into resolve uh resolve is one of the key words in that in that final sentence of the gettysburg address uh in other words uh citizens must act in such a way as to achieve the new birth of freedom it’s incumbent on

12:46 each generation to rededicate themselves to the original principles and then to live them out right now when we um visit the lincoln memorial uh when i when i did so with my students uh as we take bri teachers uh there

13:07 uh during summer seminars uh you know i’m always struck by the fact that we have the gettysburg address on one side and then the little lesser known but really important second inaugural address uh they’re inscribed in in marvel and uh i

13:28 and that’s the subject of your third speech and so how does lincoln’s second inaugural address represent his moral vision for the national union and really the fate of the country uh and how is that moral vision maybe in some way still debated today yeah yeah before i get to that let me just uh follow up on what you said about

13:50 the uh the lincoln memorial uh yeah it is uh it’s one of the benefits of lincoln’s brevity is that he gets the full text right there’s two speeches right on those on those flanking walls uh everybody else gets you know little sound bites uh if they get anything in their memorials um uh yeah so the uh the second inaugural

14:11 um both uh of the two uh uh other speeches that we’ve that we’ve uh discussed uh lyceum address and the gettysburg address uh both of them are you know about the united states but they are also about popular government altogether um the second inaugural i think

14:32 is a little different in that it is more purely american it is grounded more in the specifics of american slavery and as i read it uh the second inaugural is really the original and better 1619 project

14:52 uh it is in the second inaugural with lincoln that uh we begin the nation’s official reckoning with the 250 years of the slaves unrequited toil on this land uh the date that lincoln directs us to in the second inaugural is the origin date

15:13 of slavery in north america now to the extent that there is a solution to this legacy of american slavery lincoln finds it in his concluding call to act with malice toward none with charity for all with firmness in the right as god gives

15:35 us to see the right now uh i think one could say a lot about what that might mean uh but at a minimum it means addressing the twin issues of sectional reconciliation and racial reconciliation lincoln i think was very very aware of

15:57 the problems ahead the problems of reconstruction so the sectional problem you have the problem of northern arrogance many in the north were very ready to punish the south and hold them responsible for having been the beginners of that terrible war and then of course in the in the south

16:19 you uh have the likelihood of uh continued uh recalcitrance uh the fact that the you know defeat of southern armies didn’t uh didn’t really change the oligarchic nature uh of uh of southern uh uh you know what what what what really had become a different regime uh

16:40 in the south um and then you have uh um a very uh uh pervasive racial problem there is going to be white resistance to equal political rights for blacks not only in the south but but also in the north and then i think on the black side uh

17:02 there is the possible danger of uh anger and rage um you know an outraged uh sense of justice uh at that uh 250 years of unrequited toil and uh and the uh danger of a kind of hopelessness uh if it if it seems that the nation

17:23 can’t make progress on racial justice so lincoln’s interpretation of the war and and that is what he offers in the second inaugural uh he offers an interpretation of the war as god’s punishment for the sin of american slavery and i think that theological that sort of appeal political theological

17:44 interpretation is designed to lessen the likelihood of the sections blaming one another for the war and also to induce humility and a willingness to begin at least the process of racial atonement and reparation uh now i’ve used the word uh reparation

18:06 reparations uh that is uh much used today uh today i think that word often takes on a distinctly economic valence uh but lincoln i think gives the idea a spiritual or attitudinal valence once again

18:27 his focus is on preparing public opinion for the difficult work ahead uh he he does what he can in a in a speech to try to foster a new spirit of joint striving i mean he knows it will take much more than those words

18:47 but i think he does hope through those words and if he if he can persuade americans to accept his interpretation of the war that it will be easier for them to go forward in that spirit of joint striving right um now uh my last question uh i’ve said that your your excellent book his

19:08 greatest speeches is is an excellent civic lesson uh and in the uh appendix you you include uh the speeches uh themselves uh and and so we hope that our citizens our teachers read the book of course your reflections your thoughtful uh analysis but then also the

19:28 speeches as well and so uh what is the important civic purpose today that we continue to read lincoln’s speeches uh yeah thanks for mentioning that uh that appendix i mean i really do want people to read lincoln more than to read me uh so uh

19:50 yeah reading lincoln is is kind of like a detox program uh you know by which you rid yourself of acquired uh toxins uh now our toxins uh are different uh than those of lincoln’s time uh but we too have been tempted to jettison the founding principles uh to lose sight of

20:12 the fact uh that we must preserve both liberty and equality and somehow we have to figure out how those two things fit together conceived in liberty dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal today i think there are many americans influenced perhaps by things like the

20:32 1619 project who see only racism in the american ideal and in american history they they’re tempted to see the many disgraceful elements of our history and i certainly wouldn’t deny those but they’re tempted to see those disgraceful elements as part and parcel

20:53 of the founding rather than as aberrations from it there are attempts now i think to alter our essential commitments i hear a lot of talk of equity rather than equality as our aim before signing on to that substitution i

21:14 think it would be very important to think deeply about what equity might mean uh for liberty uh what it might mean for equality understood as the possession of equal rights so i think lincoln is still our best resource for understanding our founding principles and the best model for how to go about

21:37 defending them so yeah everybody needs to uh to read more lincoln uh and to uh and to think more about what we learned from lincoln good advice well your book is certainly a great help in that uh his greatest speeches how lincoln moved the nation

21:58 diana chava i want to thank you very much for joining us and sharing your thoughts about your remarkable new book thank you really enjoyed it great uh and thank you all for joining us on this episode of scholar talks please check out our library of other interviews uh with some great scholars on abraham lincoln including alan gilzo

22:18 lucas morrell john schaff james oakes and others so uh check them out on youtube thanks