Abraham Lincoln and American Political Institutions of Self-Government with Michael Zuckert

0:00 the basis or the foundation even of legitimate political Authority is what we might call popular or Democratic sovereignty that is the notion that the people are the source of legitimate Authority and the ultimate holders so to speak of legitimate Authority so as the source of legitimate Authority

0:21 the people have a right or a say in how this Authority is used in by whom and so this implies as Lincoln understood it not everybody understood it the same way but as Lincoln understood it this implies republicanism this implies as Lincoln rephrased that

0:43 government of the People by the people and for the people or what we would today call democracy [Music] hi for this episode of scholar talks The Guiding question is how can we perpetuate American political institutions of self-government

1:05 now our guest Michael Zucker is a professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame and is uniquely qualified to answer this question he has written extensively about political Theory constitutionalism natural rights republicanism he’s the author of several books including the newly published a nation so conceived Abraham Lincoln and

1:27 the Paradox of democratic sovereignty I am Tony Williams Senior fellow at the Bill of Rights Institute and I am pleased to bring you another episode of scholar talks in our series Topics in government and Civics Michael I want to thank you very much for joining us Tony thank you for having me happy to be here

1:48 right no no one of the reasons I I love your your new book and Nation so conceived is is it examines the Lincoln’s speeches his rhetoric uh but uh you know it examines a political thought behind them as well as provide some really important and interesting historical historical context as well it’s really a remarkable achievement

2:09 right and and in the in the new University press of Kansas constitutional thinking Series so so well done well done yeah thanks very much yeah thank you great well now I know a lot of the questions that I’m going to post you we can talk about for an entire semester in a college course but we only have about 20 25 minutes so

2:30 so uh we’ll jump right in uh but but these are some big questions about it but your your your qualified to to give us a concise answer I hope so yeah so so let me start maybe at the beginning right at this sort of the core question is you know why is all all men are created equal why is that at the core of

2:51 democratic sovereignty in American republicanism according to Abraham Lincoln well no this is this is uh this is a topic very close to the center of my book um and uh as I hope most of our listeners realize this is a quotation from the Gettysburg Address Lincoln’s most famous speech and but in the

3:13 Gettysburg Address it’s also a quotation from the Declaration of Independence the other sort of I’d say Prime document of American political history so you have these two documents coming together somehow in this particular place so in in uh in his category address Lincoln says something like you know four score so not just simply like but he says four

3:35 score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to that proposition that all men are created equal and the question I think is well what did Lincoln mean by that um I think the first thing is the first thing he meant by that is is this effect

3:55 that no human being is born with some sort of inherent right or some sort of Talent OR ability or gift or any natural quality that gives that person a right to rule other people that’s the basic thought all men are equal in that sense and

4:18 Lincoln along with Jefferson who wrote that same phrase in the Declaration recognize that people are unequal in other ways but none of those other ways grants are right to anybody to rule anybody Jefferson said the mass of mankind has not been born with settles on their backs nor a favored few booted and spurred ready to ride them

4:39 legitimately by the grace of God it’s the same claim really said in a somewhat more um uh how should we say uh visual way and so in the Gettysburg address in in his whole career this uh phrase this Clause had an obvious application on the issue of race-based slavery I mean it’s clearly a

5:01 claim that this kind of slavery is illegitimate um and but in in Lincoln’s thinking it had a a broader appeal or a broader application as well um it raises the question where does legitimate Authority come from where does governmental Authority come from if it comes from anywhere is

5:22 there legitimate Authority ever so Lincoln just as he took the phrase from the Declaration of Independence he looked to the Declaration for the answer and the Declaration says governmental power comes from the consent of the government so the consent of the government that’s the answer um and this implies

5:43 that the basis or the foundation even of legitimate political Authority is what we might call popular or Democratic sovereignty that is the notion that the people are the source of legitimate Authority and the ultimate holders so to speak of legitimate Authority so as the source of legitimate Authority

6:05 the people have a right or a say in how this Authority is used and by whom and so this implies as Lincoln understood it not not everybody understood that the same way but as Lincoln understood it this implies republicanism this implies as Lincoln

6:26 rephrased that government of the People by the people and for the people or what we would today call democracy uh so that’s that’s the connection there’s a kind of close connection between the the claims that all men are pretty evil the claim that the system rests on Democratic sovereignty and the claim

6:48 that the Opera regime is a republic or as we think of them as a democracy but what’s interesting in my next question is that you also point out that there is uh an enduring Paradox if you will of of democratic sovereignty as you point out in the subtitle of your book can you talk a little bit about that maybe this is the the central uh Insight or new

7:09 thing any way that I want to Claim about Lincoln that the big issues that concerned Lincoln in his uh political career um involved what I call in the book The Paradox Democratic sovereignty and the Paradox is something like this this notion of democratic sovereignty that that we’ve been talking about uh as

7:30 Lincoln understood it this stated the true the true base basis of political life that is the true uh uh proper political grounding of governance altogether however however and this was a big however and it was the source of the problem is Lincoln sought it is readily

7:50 misunderstood and in ways that challenge legal government and this readily this ready understanding is related to the nature of the doctrine of popular sovereignty or Democratic so there’s a natural tendency to do so and therefore he saw it not

8:11 merely as a problem of his moment but a likely recurring problem in Democratic life he saw at least three different versions of these misunderstandings that organized his political uh activity um let me mention uh the first was is

8:31 one that he took up uh as a very young man um and I’d call that fabulism the problem of populism something that we’ve had a kind of Rebirth of and so it’s interesting to talk about now um so populism Lincoln was concerned in a very early speech of his with the problem of mob rule or mob action but it

8:53 turns out he wasn’t interested in just any old mob you know not interested in people who go to uh uh Best Buy stores in steel televisions that’s not what he meant he meant mobs as groups of people who take the law into their own hands and act in place of the law and when you begin to think about what

9:16 this what’s the source of this problem um the source of the problem is the doctrine of popular sovereignty because if the people believe that they are the source of legitimate Authority that political power ultimately is theirs and rests in their hands then Lincoln is like then no sorry then the people are are tempted constantly to take the

9:39 law into their own hands if they don’t believe the governing authorities are doing the proper job and Lincoln gives some analyzes of some instances in his time in which this happened but I’m you know I’m thinking particularly of similar event in our history right now recent history um January 6th one of the things that uh

10:01 one of the chance or slogans that the people who were attacking the capital were were singing was our house our house this was this captured the very idea that Lincoln is getting at here the people who were doing that were saying look this belongs to us we have a right

10:22 to intervene here when we think something uh is not happening that should that that’s wrong uh and so that’s example an example of the populist danger that he saw at his time um another that he saw was the problem of popular sovereignty is developed by Stephen Douglas in the uh and and which

10:44 came to a head in the Lincoln Douglas debates the very famous Lincoln Douglas debates and so those debates or the doctrine of popular sovereignty I should say douglas douglas the version thereof was an attempt to settle a very um troubling problem that was uh roiling political life in the 1850s and

11:07 that was the problem should slavery be allowed to expand into the territories of the United States those parts of the United that unite were owned by the United States but were not yet formed as States Lincoln thought not Lincoln thought not and the reason he thought not was because all men are created legal and slavery is wrong according to that

11:29 principle and therefore it should not be extended Douglas on the other hand said let’s take the position of principle the dominant ruling principle of America which is self-government which is um popular sovereignty I.E the people that the people will and let’s say let’s let all the local authorities the

11:50 territorial governments settle in the issue of whether they’ll have slavery or not and this meant to this was meant by Douglas to solve some political to solve the political agitation that was going on in Washington take it away from Washington and return it to the to the territories he thought that this was not merely uh going to settle the political

12:12 Waters but was the right thing was the right principle of self-government for this country um and what Lincoln responded was that this Doctrine this version of popular sovereignty the basis of that Doctrine as I try to explain a minute ago is the principle all men are created equal if

12:35 all men are created equal is the principle upon which popular sovereignty rests then you cannot vote against all men are created equal the basis of popular sovereignty it cannot validate uh it cannot I should say invalidate the principle on which it rests and therefore Lincoln tried to point out what a complete self-contradiction in in

12:55 a way nuttiness the the Douglas’s version of this was nonetheless the idea that the people Rule and can do whatever they feel is right um uh that’s a natural tendency in a system like that like this if government is a voluntary activity and in the U.S we particularly

13:17 um made that visible when in adopting the Constitution we had uh a ratification conventions appeals direct appeals to the people to ratify that is to consent to the Constitution well the interesting thing is is that when the southerners were seceding they engaged in the exact opposite reverse process

13:37 they had de-ratification conventions in effect or secession conventions in which they went they took the same process and they just reversed it and they said we joined this way we’re going to we’re going to to leave it in this way and this is a kind of application of the principle of consent if consent is the basis of

13:58 um uh government then how about dissolving it by consenting to leave it and that’s the issue that’s the claim that they were that they were raising what virtues what Civic virtues does Lincoln think are necessary for self-governance in the people you know individually as they literally self-govern themselves and their passions uh but then uh also as members

14:20 of the political community yeah good that’s a really good question and of course this is one Lincoln didn’t address quite as uh systematically as the uh previous ones we’ve talked about so I have to kind of infer things here and there for what he’s what he what he might answer to this I would say in a way the first one would

14:41 be the acceptance of the principle and of its implications that all men are created equal um in a way the Gettysburg addressed his most famous speech that’s what it’s about it’s about the dedication of the founders of their principle in how we need to rededicate ourselves to it and extend it when necessary

15:01 um and so I would say that’s the first thing that’s the first thing the second thing would be the acceptance of the rule of law and constitutional interpretation institutions that um follow from that principle of all men are created equal thirdly I would say an alertness to the

15:23 behavioral pre-represence of self-government so for example an attentive citizenry that the citizenry has to pay attention to what the governors are doing and um you know it’s a impressive to me to a lot of people that Lincoln and Douglas would have these debates that go on for three hours and the people would sit out there in

15:45 the you know the Heat and uh it it without too much good public address system also and listen to these guys go on for so long I mean can you imagine an American audience today doing something like that it’s hard to imagine um I would say a fourth kind of thing

16:05 um respect uh for uh those things which I would call prerequisites of self-government so for the basic rights of others respect for free you know for Bill of Rights things that really fit your your institutions agenda I mean respect for the Free Speech the right free speech very important uh which

16:27 unfortunately isn’t a kind of odd sort of danger today uh freedom of religion another importance another important virtue required uh respect for others the other safeguards in the Bill of Rights uh a fifth thing um that maybe isn’t always appreciated that

16:47 Lincoln saw government is not really requiring certain vertices and people but as promoting certain virtues in the people which he thought around the whole good so it promotes um industriousness that is when people have an opportunity to do things uh it brings out their

17:08 talents and their abilities and develops their faculties and he thought this is in a way the best thing about uh free government that’s the role of the citizenry and according to Lincoln you know what’s the role of of the Statesmen in preserving self-government well you know whether through constitutionalism and and prudence and and rhetoric and so

17:28 forth yeah another another good question another one that he didn’t so much address explicitly but which he we think embodied to a great degree but one thing so but I think he would say that it’s very difficult to give a definitive answer to this question because the needs of citizenship are very

17:49 circumstantial tell a quick little story that uh I think illustrates uh statesmanship as Lincoln practiced it so early earliest in the war um you know he had this General McClellan who was the chief General and he had a lot of problems with Glenn because McClellan would never fight um and Lincoln knew he wasn’t that he didn’t know a lot about war but he knew

18:11 that you’re not going to win a war if you don’t fight um and so he was concerned about McClellan so one night he was out and he went over to mcclellan’s house he wanted to talk to him and he had with him his military attachment it turns out McClellan was out and out at the Opera or somewhere and so Lincoln said all right I’ll wait for you

18:32 and so he sat in the Parlor the front part of the vet Tyler whichever one they they used to sit in and uh he was sitting and he was sitting and he was sitting and then eventually the servant came down and said uh General McClellan has gone to bed and I mean this is an amazing thing you know the commander-in-chief this he’s

18:53 just insulted him in an astonishingly powerful way and the attache thought Lincoln should reacted you know some sort of big Huff but interesting link Lincoln just went home and did nothing and the attache was astonished of that and thought this was some sort of something something strange by Lincoln how Lincoln defended his himself is he

19:16 said McClellan is the best General I’ve got and I can’t afford not to have him now and so under those circumstances Lincoln swallowed his pride took this insult and stuck with McClellan when other under other circumstances the right thing to do and I’m pretty sure

19:36 would to be dismiss McClellan on the spot but so but there’s no you know there’s no rule this is the one thing that you need to do but one of the things I think it shows a quality of statesmanship that is needed is um the ability to control your efforts uh I’m sure he was pretty insulted I’m

19:57 sure he was you know this was he took it for what it was but he you know he took it because he he knew that the country or the his presidency required it at that moment so kind of self-control I think that’s a really important a really important part of it another thing I think that’s important and that Lincoln uh exemplified

20:18 is to know your own strengths and your own limits he knew he was a wonderful speaker and he took advantage of that but he also knew for example that he didn’t know much about fighting Wars and so he did the best he could I mean there was a big deficiency in the circumstances but he did the best he could just he took out

20:40 books from the Library of Congress about about horse and he uh he deferred to the generals when he had to he pushed them when he could um and he looked always for a general that would actually fight and then finally he found you know Sherman Grant Etc Sheridan I mean a group of generals

21:00 who really did what needed to be done the third thing that that I would say would be that Lincoln did don’t demonize your opponents he really wasn’t he really understood that to demonize them just gets them angry and makes it makes them worse than they were before um and this is very visible in the way he spoke of the southerners

21:22 um he he didn’t approve the slavery and he didn’t approve of their having slaves but on the other hand he tried to be understanding of their situation and he said one place we’re no better than they would be if we were in their situation um and this was a kind of uh kind of

21:44 thing he said about other groups as well and the fact is his private views of the southerners was off were often harsher than his public views but that’s that’s the way he was and then I’d say one final thing um tend to the vision thing uh What uh the first President Bush I

22:06 think spoke of as the vision thing um and Lincoln was great you know Lincoln was great about the vision thing that’s maybe his greatest his greatest achievement um but that as he understood it and I think he as he practiced it statesmanship involves a kind of teaching and preaching and um as much as formulating public policy

22:29 maybe more uh and so in a popular regime this is particularly important because the people have to be they have to believe in what this country is about and so uh that’s the Statesman he has to do that as well I argue in my book someone I think it’s going to be um one of the controversial features of

22:49 the book that that actually Lincoln um was right uh constitutionally correct in the positions he took that he did not in fact play fast and loose with the Constitution but that’s another that’s another story anyway so those are a few things that I think Lincoln shows in his statesmanship and that are um of continuing the last things of

23:11 value right well it’s an excellent list uh and my final question uh goes back to the question we posed at the very beginning our guiding question how can we perpetuate American political institutions of self-government you know according to Lincoln good well you know that seems to me similar to the um

23:31 to the statesmanship question in the sense that challenges that the country faces are different at different times so for example when Lincoln uh when Lincoln was president almost all the problems were domestic we had no suppressing foreign policy

23:52 problems during the Cold War there were pressing foreign policy problems or certainly during work too um so what’s needed at different times varies I think according to the circumstances but I would say in in concluding that there are certain abiding things that perhaps we could say

24:13 or that Lincoln would say one um respectable on the Constitution I personally in the hard times that we’ve been through recently I thought if we stick to the Constitution we’ll be okay and I think that’s proved to be true um and secondly take seriously the

24:33 principle that all men are created equal and what it and all the things it implies and as Lincoln understood it implied a lot of things uh including you know political Liberty a lot of economic Liberty uh religious liberty uh um no imperialism he was very opponent

24:53 as opposed to imperialism things like that and I I think those if these if we keep those two things in mind uh we can preserve perpetuate our institutions so I hope all right hey uh we hope to so uh I’m Michael Zucker just been a real honor and I want to thank you very much for joining me thank you very much it’s

25:14 been a pleasure and thank you all for joining us on this episode of scholar talks check out our other interviews in the series topics in government and Civics as well as our other series on the American presidency and our series on the Cold War and and the presidency thank you